Due to decreasing use over the years, I have decided to disable the forum functionality of the site.

Forums will still be available to view but new posts are no longer allowed.

Washy looking sabino TB mare - Saton and Lace- NEW PHOTOS

Adell January 16, 2010 February 22, 2011

Forums

For some reason I think this mare has been talked about before... but I could be wrong. Her name is Saton and Lace, she is bay, by palomino & white sabino TB stallion - Sato. I find her colour to be very washed out, could it be possible that she is also Rabicano? [img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/AdellEquine/SaL.jpg[/img]

RiddleMeThis Sat, 01/16/2010 - 18:39

[quote="Adell"]What would happen if you breed a Max sabino to an other Max sabino?[/quote] Depends on if the horses are truly max sabino or not.

(assuming no other patterns)
Max Sabino1 to Max Sabino 1 gives you another max sabino.

Dominant White to Dominant White gives you dominant white or solid

Max Sabino to Dominant White gives you dominant white, or minimal white

RiddleMeThis Sat, 01/16/2010 - 19:42

[quote="Adell"]How is a dominate white different then a Max Sabino?[/quote]
Different mutation.

Dominant White is a dominant gene
Sabino is an incomplete dominant

Dominant White is EMBRYONIC lethal in its homozygous form
Sabino is fine in its homozygous form

They also look different IMO. They move differently, and place white differently.

Monsterpony Sat, 01/16/2010 - 19:42

Dominant white is incomplete dominant. One copy of the gene gives you the max white expression and two copies is thought to be embyonic lethal.

Sabino, on the other hand, will show more "normal" white markings with only one copy, but takes two copies to fully express the max white phenotype.

accphotography Sat, 01/16/2010 - 21:16

While that is true, the heterozygote is not "half dead". In fact, the whole reason it is named "dominant white" is because the researchers consider it a dominant gene (I guess you could argue that an incomplete dominant gene is still a dominant gene)... ok Horsegen, chime in.

If I'm not mistaken, in these cases these genes are judged by phenotype only. If the phenotype of a heterozygote matches that of the homozygote it would be considered a simple dominant. Frame is considered an incomplete dominant, but my understanding is that it has nothing to do with the lethal homozygous issue but the issue that heterozygotes are parti-colored and the homozygotes are all white. in a dominant white the heterozygote could be all white so there is nothing to increase the effect of phenotypically. I completely understand your point, so don't think that's the issue, I just don't think that's the case in the particular case.

Maigray Sat, 01/16/2010 - 22:22

I think there's a point in remembering that it is theorized to be embryonic lethal, just as it's theorized a WW horse could exist, and the theory was considered more probable in some cases than others.

accphotography Sat, 01/16/2010 - 22:27

True. To say that they have not found one really means VERY little. Since these lines are so separate it's unlikely that many Ws have even been bred together. Unfortunately now some people won't breed two together because they fear a foal like an LW despite the fact they've been assured that won't happen. Some won't even risk that "maybe the mare just didn't catch moment" of an early embryonic lethal. I hope someone gets the courage to try it now that there has been enough breeding that the resulting foal wouldn't be all that inbred.

Monsterpony Sat, 01/16/2010 - 23:37

Actually, with the rarity of these horses and the likely minimal number of breedings between them, can we really say that something like a LW foal isn't possible? I understand that the genes are completely different and have different effects, but can we be sure until multiple breedings are attempted?

accphotography Sat, 01/16/2010 - 23:48

True. I think their thought process was that they don't think anyone has had a while foal die that wasn't LWO positive... but I don't think they can really know that.

I do think they have some molecular reasons to believe it would be an embryonic homozygous lethal though.

Adell Sun, 01/17/2010 - 09:54

Ok... :sad I am feeling sorta slow and things are not going in making sence :? Maybe I can change the question to get the answer I understand :lol:

Mom and I bought a new stallion. And we bought the mare in question (Saton and Lace) we have plans on breeding the two of them together plus breeding him to our other colourful TB mare (Pride and Prejudice)

Unlucky for me I only have her last fall **needs more weight photos** of her, but here is one.
[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

The stallion we bought is Arctic Cielo
[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

Maigray Sun, 01/17/2010 - 13:45

Okay, if they are both heterozygous dominant white, then you will have a straight 50% chance of a dominant white foal. There is a 25% chance of homozygous foal BUT that may be impossible if the theory of embryonic lethality is true. There is also a 25% chance of not dominant whtie foal. Dominant white has range of expression that could cover nearly anything. The foal could be more or less than 50% white, but considering the parents, probably more.

There is also the possibility of other white patterns. For instance, if they have been selectively bred, as many have been, to other horses with lots of white, they could carry the potential for expressing sabino or splash type markings. So there is some possibility of a foal with a lot of white which is not dominant white, just highly expressed sabino and/or splash markings.

accphotography Sun, 01/17/2010 - 14:40

IME with that particular stallion and those mare's line... you have a VERY high chance at color, be it dominant white or not. You also have a chance to produce the first WW and disprove the theory. :mrgreen: I think Ms. Samantha Brooks might be very interested in these foals.

Jenks Mon, 01/18/2010 - 13:28

[quote="Adell"]Thanks everyone.

I will keep you posted on what is happening, and you all can laugh with me when we get a crop of solid (but very well put together) foals in 2011 :rofl[/quote]

Giggle! I can't wait to see Adell! Congrats on the new stally and the mare is looking much better! What of your other frame stally?

Adell Fri, 01/22/2010 - 16:27

Here are the photos I took today. Enjoy. I wouldn't mind some imput on what photos should make it onto the web page.

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]
This is why I was thinking Rabicano

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/…]

Jenks Sat, 01/23/2010 - 07:43

10 shows her reach [i]probably[/i] the best in the front and shows her back leg really under and grabbing for the ground. #1 shows extension and is what hunter prospects usually look like. (?) But I am no expert. 14 makes her head look prettier and is pleasing to the eye. 4 shows her really getting her backend under and grabbing for the ground.