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Two foals in one day.....

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My last two foals were born yesterday...both mares, neither of which was due for another three weeks, decided to have a party and have both at the same time, well, nearly, one at 1.30 am and the other at 11.45 pm, nothing like keeping the old girl on her toes!!! Then to cap it all the maiden's foal decided he did not know how to nurse and would not take a bottle, no way, NO how...YUK!!! Not completely out of the woods yet but at least he has found the breakfast bar now! The maiden is a Silver Black and has had a Silver Bay colt, the "seasoned" mare who is Black has had a Silver Black...neither foal has ANY white on it at all...the only patterned foals I have had from this stallion have been Red and White...so, any takers for a theory that pattern can be attached to extension as in Roan?? I say "can" as opposed to "is" as I know there are examples of this not being the case. I'll put up pictures when I can keep my eyes open for more than two minutes without using toothpicks....... :rofl These are both really exciting foals, I am over the moon with them, in spite of losing two foals this year I have four truly lovely foals, so, count your blessings!!

rabbitsfizz Wed, 07/01/2009 - 15:10

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/…]
This is Widgets little colt...Silver Bay, obviously, he took 12 hours to find the breakfast bar but once he found it he won't leave her alone!!!
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/…]
You can see how ecstatic she is with the whole thing!!!

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/…]
this is Eccos daughter...this is a very nice filly indeed, I am very pleased with both these foals but the filly has a head to die for!!
She was up and nursing and pushing me away within minutes.
Of course Ecco is an experienced mother.....
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/…]
That is Kassy in the background.....these foals are also very small, about 19" unfolded.
The first two were quite a bit bigger...around 21" I think.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/…]
and a couple more...I have been very lucky with all my foals this year!!
Right now we are in the middle of a heat wave, so I have turned them out as there is shade in the fields and the mares are sensible enough to go there, when they are in a stall I worry that the temps might change and the mares would not be able to do anything...anyway they are four days old now and should be OK.

Sara Wed, 07/01/2009 - 16:02

How do you tell the difference between a silver bay foal and a bay with baby flaxen? I'm not questioning the color, just curious how you know the difference!

Bannerminis Wed, 07/01/2009 - 16:39

Those are two smashing foals RF - no wonder you are pleased. Really like the look of both of them. That colt also has a beautiful face and large eye and wow again on that filly :love

rabbitsfizz Thu, 07/02/2009 - 05:07

Sara, it looks like a Silver Bay.
It is by a Silver Bay.
It is o/o a Silver Black.
Chances are it [i]is[/i] a Silver Bay!! :rofl
Trust me, he is a Silver Bay!

And I have never seen a bay with flaxen...Pangare, yes, flaxen, as in flaxen mane and tail...no...have you and if so do you have pictures, I would be interested to see the colour.
Silver Bay is sometimes mistaken for Chestnut with Flaxen, though, and the pictures maybe do not show that he is "misted" all over, and his mane and tail are uniform grey, not flaxen and not the grey you get with grey or Roan, they are a uniform "misted grey" colour, it is weird, but unmistakable, and was obvious right form the start.

accphotography Thu, 07/02/2009 - 13:05

I see silver bay too. Even if his mane and tail were black I'd see silver bay. It's the coat color that does it for me with most silver bay foals. It has a like a bronze tone to it. It just doesn't look like the bright red of a bay or the brown of a brown. Also, as RF said, the tail should be alot darker than baby flaxen and obviously more gray looking than blonde like flaxen.

RF I think she meant "baby flaxen", not actual lasting flaxen.

RiddleMeThis Fri, 07/03/2009 - 01:05

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]have you and if so do you have pictures, I would be interested to see the colour.[/quote]
You've already seen this one, and hes not completely flaxen but close.
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/…]

And they are VERY VERY cute foals! Though I will ditto the question ACC asked What pattern is the stallion?

rabbitsfizz Fri, 07/03/2009 - 04:54

Wow, no, I had not seen that picture, I don't think, and yes, it does mimic Silver Bay very well indeed!!!
Sire of the foals, do you mean??
He is Tobiano base + I am pretty sure Sabino.

RiddleMeThis Fri, 07/03/2009 - 05:30

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]
Sire of the foals, do you mean??
He is Tobiano base + I am pretty sure Sabino.[/quote]
Well tobiano IS connected to Extension just as roan is. Its not the indivual mutations, it is KIT itself, and that includes Roan, Tobiano, Domiant White, and Sabino 1.

rabbitsfizz Fri, 07/03/2009 - 12:02

That's interesting, could you explain a little more??
I know stallions that have thrown Red and White and Black and White foals, so it cannot be as Roan???

RiddleMeThis Fri, 07/03/2009 - 14:03

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]That's interesting, could you explain a little more??
I know stallions that have thrown Red and White and Black and White foals, so it cannot be as Roan???[/quote]Well it is.

But Ill try to explain this little better. Extension and kit are connected.

So if you have a horse who is EeTOto, TO is going to be connected to either E or e and then "to" to the other. So for this example TO is going to be connected "E".

When that horse has a foal all of the foals he passes his "E" to will also get tobiano. All the foals he passes "e" to will be solid.

Now there is about a 7% crossover percentage, so about 7% of the horses he passes his "E" to will get "to" and 7% of the horses he passes his "e" to will get "TO".

Now as far as getting black and white and red and white pintos, it sounds like the tobiano on this horse is connected to his "e".

When this horses passes his "e" he will pass "TO". So all of his chestnuts will be tobiano. But also some of his black based foals will be tobiano to when he passes "e" but the dam of the foal passes "E".

Heres a good chart
Take for example this (stallion is Ee TOto) His E and TO are linked and his e and to are linked.

[img]http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt35…]

The black bar is black based horses and the red bar is red based horses.
The solid parts are solid horses.
The striped parts are tobiano horses
The checkered parts are "overo"

CMhorses Fri, 07/03/2009 - 16:23

Could that explain why all our chestnut paints are frame+ and only our bays are tobiano + ? From the same sire of course.

RiddleMeThis Fri, 07/03/2009 - 16:26

[quote="CMhorses"]Could that explain why all our chestnut paints are frame+ and only our bays are tobiano + ? From the same sire of course.[/quote]
If the sire is Ee then yes.

accphotography Fri, 07/03/2009 - 16:44

Well but if Rabbit's stallion is red based then he will pass the tobiano 50% of the time regardless of what color the foal ends up. If the horse is homozygous at extension (EE or ee) the linkage will not come into play.

The fact that he seems to only produce tobianos that are red is coincidence because the dams could have thrown their E on top of his e and TO at any time. Now if he is Ee, that's a whole 'nother story.

Sara Fri, 07/03/2009 - 17:09

Rabbit, I wasn't questioning your statement that he is silver bay -- just curious about how you tell the difference. I know people who have had what they were sure were chestnuts because of their baby flaxen and then they shed out bay (of course we all would have known they were bay ;) ) so I was just wondering how you tell the difference between baby bay flaxen and a tail that is lightened by silver when both colors are possible.

rabbitsfizz Sat, 07/04/2009 - 02:10

OK, I knew that :flower
It is hard to explain, but when you see the foal you are in no doubt at all....it has a sort of "misted" overlay on the coat, and the mane and tail are beige.
Since the sire and the dam both have Silver, even though that Flaxen Bay is a good mimic, it makes more sense for my foal to be what he looks like.....he makes me die, BTW if I scratch his tummy he throws himself on my lap and rolls over with his legs in the air...I did point out to him that this was one trick that was only cute when you weighed 15 pounds and stood about ten inches high, and that it would look pretty silly when he was a big grown up horse....but he was too busy sucking my arm to death (like a puppy) to respond, anyway his mummy told him it was rude to talk with your mouth full!

That makes complete sense about the extension, and explains why the Red based mares are happily spewing out red and white foals...I have one minimal Bay base Tobi from a Bay Roan mare .
The stallion has a red dam and a buckskin sire (Silver) the dam is the Tobiano (+ I think, Splash)

Sara Sat, 07/04/2009 - 18:54

Ok, I know what you mean about some things that are just obvious in person.

I want to see a video of that trick, by the way!

rabbitsfizz Sun, 07/05/2009 - 04:43

Hard to video with a foal in your lap....I had him sitting on me yesterday, he just thinks people are the best.
Still doesn't have a name, though.
The filly, apparently, is Amira, although that gives her a lot to live up to, but the colt....nothing comes to mind.