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Trim critique please...

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accphotography
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Trim critique please...
http://www.accphotography.com/gallery/photos/lacy/09_07_09_hooves/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Thanks!
CMhorses
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Re: Trim critique please...

Okay, I am not any type of trained farrier and just know what I've read and stuff I've done to my own horses. LF looks good,LH looks good too. RF looks to have maybe a tad of flare near the quarter/heel area and RH's angle looks weird compared to the leg, maybe take the toe down a little.

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Morgan
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Re: Trim critique please...

They look really good to me. aanhcp?
Clean and open with good wall and well finished. Somewhat soggy but that's just the weather, in a dryer climate you might be able to build stronger bars and heels easier. The right hind looks like an old injury. Mainly I'd want to look at the hind toe, the angle/lenght feels slightly off and though I can't tell without getting my hands on it I would want to see if you can take a bit more toe. (might not be able to, long hind toes are just a pet peeve of mine lol). I also think I would have trimmed the outside wall directly behind that split just a hair shorter/more arched. RF is a bit assymetrical but look like the ballance is back in check so should sort out fine.

btw: NO finger on the hoof when looking at heels and balance! Not even a little bit. You'd be suprised how flexible and independant barefoot heels are. Part of what makes a sound barefoot horse so surefooted. They can have one heel up on a small rock and the other still firmly planted on the surface and not twist the leg so much. Sort of like toes...only backwards. :?

slaneyrose
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Re: Trim critique please...

I thought the angle of LF looked a little "off" too??

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Danni
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Re: Trim critique please...

She looks to mostly have great feet!! And seriously wow you trim so neat!!! And way more level than I ever get!!

I trim usually(:)) barefoot though so I'd have a lot less wall. They look like a hoof to me that's about to be trimmed. LH3 especially with that rough quarter is saying more hoof off?

P.S I'm no expert, just do my own sometimes and a barefoot farrier now and then to watch but it's hard to compare a hoof trimmed for a shoe (more what this looks like) compared to a proper barefoot trim??

Morgan
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Re: Trim critique please...

She looks to mostly have great feet!! And seriously wow you trim so neat!!! And way more level than I ever get!!

I trim usually(:)) barefoot though so I'd have a lot less wall. They look like a hoof to me that's about to be trimmed. LH3 especially with that rough quarter is saying more hoof off?

P.S I'm no expert, just do my own sometimes and a barefoot farrier now and then to watch but it's hard to compare a hoof trimmed for a shoe (more what this looks like) compared to a proper barefoot trim??

Another barefooter :shock: What is it with this forum? I thought it said "horse color" not "barefoot horses" :rofl Maybe we're just more open minded and thoughtful and know that horses can actually have feet lol? I dunno....

Just out of curiosity what do you consider a barefoot trim? I see a few things I would do differently here, like the "roll" is more of a vertical bevel than the rounded edge seen in the wild horses and I would take them slightly shorter since I don't think the sole has been cleaned out quite enough but I wouldn't consider this a "shoe trim" :? ? Definitely wouldn't have a "lot" less wall, maybe at most a quarter inch or so on hind toes, anything more would make the sole the lowest part on the hoof. The rough quarter is likely related to the wetness, possibly needing increased trim frequency. While the outside heel does look long I would be hesitant to say "trim it" without looking at the hoof and leg myself as I wouldn't want to risk a high inside since that causes problems with the horse's back.

Caution long wided hoof talk ahead! :oops:

Since you are doing your own on bit of adice is to don't focus too much on little things, you mentioned these are more level than you get, try to focus everything you have into balance. You get that right and everything else follows. Poor balance will undermine all your good work elsewhere.
You'd be surprised how many "professional" barefoot trimmers can't get a hoof balanced to save their lives. :hammer That's why they spend so much effort trying to figure out how to "fix" stuff with gimmicky trim methods. Always keep in mind how a hoof was meant to be taken care of: by the horse moving on abrasive ground. If whatever you are about to do to the hoof would not happen naturally given natural conditions do not do it.(as a corollary if you are leaving something that would naturally be worn off do not leave it...) There's some experience involved in reading wear patterns to get a hoof truly balanced for the individual horse but just getting it level and with correct angle will get you out of the woods on most any problem.

M/L (side to side) balance: Always check hooves from behind as they are dropped toward the ground, holding the leg loosely. On the fronts get your face right up into their armpit and make sure you hold the leg straight underneath the horse. On the hinds try to get them to relax with you holding up by the hock and looking down the leg, dont stand to one side, your eyes will play trick on you. Close you non dominant eye. Lightly rest the file side of the rasp across both heels and check that it is perpendicular to the vertical axis of the foot/leg. If one heel is flared outward or sheared look extra carefully. Once the heels are balanced double check the toe. On hinds the highest point of the toe will usually be a point slightly to the inside of center. On the fronts the toe will be more level, either with the whole toe being flat and level or there will be two "toe pillars", square with the heels, mostly level with each other. If there is some off conformation one may be very slightly higher that the other or there may not be any arching on the quarters of that side. Never a high point in the center of the front toe. While you're there, make sure that the sole is passive to the wall. If the rasp is rocking on the frog take less heel next time...(better to watch for this and avoid as trimming) Frog lower than rest of hoof=asking for a bruise, as does sole lower than wall. If the foot was pathologically flared and the wall cannot be active take extra precaution (boots, soft ground only) to prevent bruising until the unflared wall reaches the ground.

A/P (front to back) balance: shorten, shorten, shorten toes! get some lessons with cadavers if you can and cut them open when you are done, Learn the toe sole. dark, dry, red spots on white line or sole: you didn't get it short enough last time (or went too long). If the hind toe begins to bullnose you haven't got it short enough (pay particular attention to this, that has long term effects on stifle and hock soundness). Learn to visualize normal sole depth, small tight pony type feet will look deeper, large drafty feet will look shallower. Both are natural to each hoof conformation and will actually have similar measurable depth according to the height of the horse, forcing a small foot to look flatter or a flat foot to grow deeper is trouble. The coffin bone gets no taller or deeper after birth, it only grows wider. Trim the heels ONLY the same amount that you trim the toe, no more (i.e. maintain the angle of the foot, do no lower it). (With the exception that the hoof was let go and the toe has obviously broken off in chunks without loosing the heel length, in that case make a reasonably guess on heel length and adjust as you begin trimming toe on future trims. ) even if the heel is pathologically high, by shortening the toe enough you have set up the horse to begin gradually correcting his gait, the heel will eventually lower. Look for toe angles of the top part of the toe wall (the newest groth) ranging between 50-60 degrees with the hind equal too or 2-3 degrees steeper than the front. Uncommon but possible in the wild horses were as low as 45 and as high as 65 but if I'm trimming and they fall outside of normal they'd better have a good excuse imo (extreme conformation, chronic founder, mules.)

If you know you are getting the balance right and yet the problem persists check the trim frequency. Soft ground, idle horse with strong walls will need trims at 4-5 weeks, as will foundered or very crooked horses. Most others can go 6. Dry ground, frequent riding and normal horse will go 7-8.(except for Chase who grows hooves really really fast and needs 4 weeks despite running around on hard dirt and sandstone. :roll: Should have seen the swimming flippers he grew when let go 8 weeks on soft ground :shock: ) Rarely the terrain, activity level and hoof growth will balance out and the stars align and a hoof need to be checked only once or twice a year. :lol:

Danni
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Re: Trim critique please...

Thank you for that!! I'm going to have to re-read quite a few times!!

Here is one of my buckskin mares hooves after I trimmed. This isn't a recent picture though, I did just trim a couple the other day but I sent them off to another property so can't take pictures now! This is far from perfect, but I did at least take more time than I often do :-D Also Dirty's feet could be better, but I don't trim often enough :oops: It's also why I try and get a 'proper' trimmer out now and then!

I guess why Accs didn't look so much a new barefoot trim to me was as there was still quite a bit of hoof wall on, as in above the sole? I think the feet looked great, but how they would look after a few weeks of growing? Normal trims leave more wall on? And yeh barefoot has the edges more rasped around too I guess. Normal trims, well good ones, should be similar to a good barefoot but there will be a touch more wall above the sole and 'flatter', not rounded, so weight on wall, not white line? Well not white line, but hopfully you kind of know what I mean.

I've never measured angles, that sounds like a whole new thing for me to try! I tend to be a bit rough and trim sort of to what is there, would take more knowledge than what I've got to 'fix' things I think.

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Morgan
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Re: Trim critique please...

Thank you for that!! I'm going to have to re-read quite a few times!!

Here is one of my buckskin mares hooves after I trimmed. This isn't a recent picture though, I did just trim a couple the other day but I sent them off to another property so can't take pictures now! This is far from perfect, but I did at least take more time than I often do :-D Also Dirty's feet could be better, but I don't trim often enough :oops: It's also why I try and get a 'proper' trimmer out now and then!

I guess why Accs didn't look so much a new barefoot trim to me was as there was still quite a bit of hoof wall on, as in above the sole? I think the feet looked great, but how they would look after a few weeks of growing? Normal trims leave more wall on? And yeh barefoot has the edges more rasped around too I guess. Normal trims, well good ones, should be similar to a good barefoot but there will be a touch more wall above the sole and 'flatter', not rounded, so weight on wall, not white line? Well not white line, but hopefully you kind of know what I mean.

I've never measured angles, that sounds like a whole new thing for me to try! I tend to be a bit rough and trim sort of to what is there, would take more knowledge than what I've got to 'fix' things I think.

You're welcome! I tend to get a little wordy when the hoof subject comes up because I like it so much lol :D The angle measuring is fun, I really only bring it out now if the hoof is funky looking since it's more of a tool for figuring where the hoof is at in transition than what you need to do. The trim itself doesn't change. But as a beginner it is recommended that you measure before you trim and then after to make sure you didn't change the angle by more than 1-2 degrees. Hoof Meter Reader from Star Ridge is the best since you can use it to measure the top growth while ignoring "divergent toe angle" (you know, if the toe is dishy. And then with the DTA so you have a record of if they are improving) and it has nice handy marks on it for what is natural and you measure while the hoof is on the ground and weight loaded. (and is only $10)

Nice trim! I like your roll and the sole is very nice. I think what you are seeing on ACC's is just an effect of the camera angle. There is a small gap between the edge of the sole and the wall making the wall look longer when it's actually at level of the sole.

'flatter', not rounded, so weight on wall, not white line? Well not white line, but hopfully you kind of know what I mean.

I think you mean the water line :-D The hard white inner wall. The white line is the rubbery yellow part despite the name :hammer :lol: ACC's horse has a very wide water line and the outer wall has been trimmed with a vertical cut instead of the 45 like you did. She didnt take ony of the nice 3/4 views like you did so these things are a bit harder to tell at first glance.

Now this is absolutely just nitpicking a very nice trim: Watch your wall on the sides, keep the rasp flat so the inner wall stays above sole, even if it's a bit cruddy at the arch. If you take wall down too far at any point the sole will be active. When the sole is the active point it will grow more callous at that spot to make up for it. That in turn can keep the wall from being active even after some growth, a passive wall will become weaker and you get in a loop. It's really really temping to trim the wall shorter in those spots I know!
Here is a wild hoof to see how the wall gets slightly higher as it goes to the heel point to make strong heel buttress:
http://www.naturalbalancetrim.com/images..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Same on the bars as the wall, go a little easier on them. See how this wild hoof has the heel area smooth and the relationship between the wall and the bars? the outer wall part of the bars is rolled, just like the regular wall. The bars are wall, just in a different spot and are treated the same as the wall in relation to sole. If the sole is not filled in this much in the heel the heel wall and bars would appear to be sticking up a bit higher.
Then don't forget to smooth and round the back of the heel. It takes one rasp swipe each. (btw I love that you sanded the hoof!)
Scrape your knife along the inside of the crevices to take out the dead material on the sides of the bars.

Danni
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Re: Trim critique please...

Oh that was awesome thank you!! I actually understood all of that, and makes sense!!

I might have to trim her feet again in the next week or two and get you to have a look! Seeing you give such good critique! ;) :-D

Sorry Acc, I stole your post :oops: But I had a good learning curve!

accphotography
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Re: Trim critique please...

Oh it's alright. It's been so long I can't recall but I want to say those photos were about 2 weeks post trim. She DOES always have a very wide water line. It would be crazy obvious if that was a fresh trim.

I'll try to get 3/4 shots next time I think of it.

Ii can't seem to find a freshly trimmed photo right now.

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Morgan
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Re: Trim critique please...

Any time! I really enjoy being able to talk about hooves here without devolving into unresolvable arguments like on so many forums. I treat hoof care the same way I do the horse colors. You have to have a firm functional theory model to work with but at the same time if something that makes more sense hits you on the head it's best to listen. I'm on a constant learning curve and I learn best when explaining things so I'll snag any willing listeners. :-D

EDIT: whoa!! I just got a reply to a message I had sent a few weeks ago. I think I'm going to be giving trimming lessons in Japan. :shock: The barefoot movement is very small there but not nonexistent and I managed to get in contact with one who speaks english and can set up a lesson for horse owners. :-D :-D :-D He said the horse shoers are very very anti barefoot and it's hard to find any information or trimmers there.