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Tobiano with solid legs

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Monsterpony
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I have heard a theory about how frame works that has me thinking. What if, rather than frame adding white to the body and suppressing the legs, it is actually moving the leg white up. Like the neural crest cells are being told to migrate differently.

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accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Frame's OWN leg white, or is it using another gene's leg white? Because what if there isn't another gene?

(I'm REALLY liking this theory right now as it solves a suspicion I've had if it's true.)

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Monsterpony
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Another pattern's leg white. It would explain why frame can show up as no white at all...if there is no other pattern to provide the white, then frame has nothing to play with. I would like to point out that this idea came from Ellie Carroll, owner of Kinetocoredesign.com, and she deserves the credit for it.

.

accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

That's... interesting. Then what of the leg white that's still on the legs of a frame? What about the frame's that are 90% white, what amount of leg white would have caused that? I dunno... I think it must be able to put body white on without there being another pattern. But I can still see some merit to some of the theory.

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Heather
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Another pattern's leg white. It would explain why frame can show up as no white at all...if there is no other pattern to provide the white, then frame has nothing to play with. I would like to point out that this idea came from Ellie Carroll, owner of Kinetocoredesign.com, and she deserves the credit for it.

I like it.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Until we have a way to test Splash and Sabino (properly) we have no way of ascertaining what exactly, is putting the leg white on a mostly white Frame.
There is no way of proving an animal is only Frame.
So, it might be that Frame always suppresses (or moves) white on the legs, in the way that Tobiano always suppresses white forward of the shoulder.
So Frame may have to have another pattern present in order to express further.......(?)
I am thinking out loud here, so this may not be totally coherent, but I think you can probably see what I am getting at :booty

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Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Splash often seems to be like that too? Needs another pattern there to express? Or is that just with weird shetties I know of??

Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Hey check out this really minimal tobiano filly. She's a shetland.

IMAGE(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7994/rebellionfilly.jpg)

And this is her sire, at least he's more obviously tobiano!

IMAGE(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4696/lerwickrebellion.jpg)

accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

How do we know she IS? :rofl her and the sire both have a decent number of ermines.

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Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

How do we know she IS? :rofl her and the sire both have a decent number of ermines.

LOL, well I don't suppose we do. But I know these ponies are from pretty popular lines, I have or had a lot of the same breeding, that do pretty normal shetland things. In that if there is socks, no matter how minimal then it's tobi!!

I'm going down to this breeders place in a few weeks and if they still have the filly I'll pull some hair. Although I'm positive she's tobi!

They have what I'm more used to seeing on the minimal tobi's and what I think of as white supression, with the ermines etc..

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/rabbitsfizz/Calypso%20and%20Jingles/scruffyjinglesclipso2009015.jpg)

OK,OK, STOP LAUGHING!!!!
Yes, I admit it, this scruffy thing is mine, I bred it!!!
OK???
Now, back on topic, this filly is, as far as I am able to discern, minimal Tobiano only (Her sire is Tobiano with no indications of anything else, although I do think Sabino lurks in most of these patterns....OK, I'll find a pic of her sire, hang on a mo.........)
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/rabbitsfizz/Grants%20work09/grantswork2009092-1.jpg)

This is Carlos, Solid X visual Tobiano, and is, I think, a visual Tobiano himself??

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Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Oh she's cute!!!! I'm sure in her less shaggy moments she was a stunner!Tobiano I think is definitely harder to see in her, pretty obvious in the sire (I like him too, plus he's a fave colour combination!). He's got a similar amount of expression as the bay and white stallion I posted? She is hard I think as two back white socks are so common in normal breeds. But that bit of white on the front legs puts me more in mind of a minimal tobi with the white supression?
Cheers

Danni

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I am afraid I do not believe in "normal" white, and anyway, there is no precedence in this breed, and, as far as I am concerned, all white is the result of minimal Pinto of some sort.
She actually has three white legs, but one on the fore is so slight it only showed last summer for the first time!!
I think she is actually a very good example of minimal Tobiano....

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accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I forgot about the no sabino thing. So that would mean her leg white is either splash or tobi, and with no face white I'd lean to tobi... I guess. Though it goes against my nature to see two socks as tobi.

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Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I just meant "normal" non coloured breeds ;) TB's etc.. two back white socks would be pretty common? I agree she's tobi, I just think it wasn't as obvious with "common" sabino in non coloured breeds having similar markings.

Hey I was looking at a mare I was thinking of buying, she's another minimal tobi. But her her sire and dam don't seem to be. So the white supression thing is probably resessive?? She has a fully sister too that is the opposite to her, with more white than both parents. Just thought it was interesting the minimal white tobi appearing like that, but I was thinking maybe the sire could have it and the splash is over-riding it??

IMAGE(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3006/glenelenfoxtrot.jpg)

Full sister
IMAGE(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2964/shanustimardigras.jpg)

Dam
IMAGE(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7717/shanusticarnival.jpg)

Sire
IMAGE(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1218/laurelwoodjeronimosplas.jpg)

I'll have to check them all to be completely sure, but this sire's non tobi foals are completly solid, no white. So the splash only shows up on the tobi foals.

accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

It could be recessive. It depends if that mare's phenotype is really caused by suppression as opposed to just expression variance. I see zero ermines so *shrug*.

I LOVE the expression of her full sister and the sire is goooorrrrgeous.

She's red right? Odd shade. We know she's at least 'Aa, if not 'aa'. Interesting (also note legs are darker than the rest of her and the movement of the dark from the bottom up). Not sure she says alot, but she's interesting.

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Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Yeh, they said she was born chestnut and darkened up to that nice liver colour. So she might just normal tobiano varience, but also maybe she didn't get dad's splash to boost her tobiano?

Not sure if she could be Aa or not, I'll have to check the sires foals to see if he's ever thrown a bay.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Danni, even in TBs the leg and face white is the result of Splash, Sabino or even sometimes, Frame.
TBs also have Dominant White!
There is no such thing as "normal" white, it is all Pinto.

She has THREE white socks, BTW, although my colt DC's grandsire has only two behind and that is the result, it would appear, of Tobiano, visually, at least.
I never questioned that this was Tobiano, mainly because, with my Splash lines, I tend to get at least a snip on the nose, if not face white proper.

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Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Yeh I know all white is white genes ;) Where did I ever say it wasn't ?!

But it's not usually tobiano. I agree with you so I'm not exactly sure why we are arguing about!

If I had a shetland born like that I wouldn't even have to think about it, I'd know tobiano. I basically meant that if it was a non tobi breed it could be normal markings too, just caused by sabino etc.. So in a breed with a lot of sabino/splash and 2 or 3 white socks were normal without tobi it might not be immediately obvious what caused the white socks.

I didn't realise what I said was so confusing :? Thought I was just saying the obvious!

Just because I disagree with a few of the frame theories floating around doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant ;) I only question when I see something the same as often in non frame breeds. I get that you usually find my posts offensive in some way, I used to really enjoy this forum, well the colour forum. I know I've been away for a long time but I guess I'd better think more about what I write. Sorry for not being clear.

I LIKE posting pictures here of things only I would usually find interesting. :(

edit: Sorry being a bit snarly today :oops:

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Sorry about that, Danni, we were obviously at cross purposes!!!
But there are still a fair few people out there that think that there is such a thing as "normal" white!!
And yes, you are quite right, these patterns are not normally caused by Tobiano, in fact I don't know of a breed outside of Shetlands (and possibly Icelandics who also have no Sabino) where the pattern of expression is caused by Tobiano!

I wonder if Tobiano, on it's own, is pretty minimal, and if , because of it's tendency to limit white all over the place, it actually needs another pattern to express fully??

And Splash and Sabino could be the same.....

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Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Tobiano used to be the easiest to understand :roll: :lol:

I like watching the splash/tobiano interaction in the shetties, they definitely boost each other in some way. With all the white limiters, white suppressors, others boosting white etc.. I think it does my head in sometimes!!!! :?

Dogrose
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I've found pics of Yakut horses that are just tobi, I don't think they have any other white, they never have white on their faces. The tobi markings seem pretty minimal. Just did a search and it didn't come up with pics I found before, typical!

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I just had to look up the Yakut to find out what it was!!!!

accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Hmmm... makes me wonder if tobi need a boost from another gene to get loud... or if those horses have some type of suppressor or were bred to be more minimal somehow.

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Dogrose
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I just had to look up the Yakut to find out what it was!!!!

They are great! They look like little hairy minis until you realise they are 14 hands and their coat is a foot long :D

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

They are very cute LOL!! Amazing what sort of environment they live and do well in though :o

Standardbreds be another one without a lot of white genes? Why maybe tobi could have hidden on them, as not a lot of other white genes to make it more obvious?

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Well, a) tobi did "hide" on the standies, since earlier breeders preferred the non-white-marked ones and b) the USTA studbook is not as nearly closed as people seem to think it is...hubby had gotten some info from the USTA on this recently, but the email he 'forwarded' to me was blank (i.e., he forgot to hit forward and hit 'new' instead), and now he can't find the original response as to what sorts of non-STB studbook parents are allowed. :BH :BH :BH :BH :BH

There was an appaloosa stallion (think it was a stallion) that ran against the stbs on standy tracks in standy races, but I'm drawing a blank on his name...

Diane

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Hmmm... makes me wonder if tobi need a boost from another gene to get loud... or if those horses have some type of suppressor or were bred to be more minimal somehow.

That's exact;y how I feel about it....actually, mostif not all of the patterns need to interact with one another in order to fully express...we do really need a test for Splash and Sabino, so we can isolate the patterns and see how they express individually. I am now off to google "Yakut"!!!

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rabbitsfizz
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

OK, found Yakut, I actually do know about this breed, I just did not know what it was called!!
Another flaming meat breed....they say a six month old weighs 125kgs...that really is not much, I am not sure what they are on about if they think that is good meat production, I would expect one of my six month olds to weigh in around the 100-135 kg mark, and they are half the size of these horses!!
I have never seen a broken coloured one, though, they are all solid in the pictures and video I have seen.
I would expect anything that turned up Pinto to be an outcross and to be Tobiano alone, though, as the patterns this far north are very limited.

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Dogrose
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I found a few pics of tobi yakuts (in google images) a while back when I was looking for any signs of frame in Asian horses but now when I look the pics aren't there. I found one of a fairly minimal tobi but that was all.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

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