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*thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

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Songcatcher
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Yes there's been a gray test for about a year.

I've seen it on countless roans these days. Check out the Brabants. Little to no sabino in them and most have lots of roaning on their faces and same down to their legs.

Roans only:

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Roxie.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/08foal_4.jpg)

I certainly don't claim to be an expert regarding Roans, but that blaze face and white socks is not "Roan only".

:sabino

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

accphotography
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

When I said "roan only" I meant no gray. ;)

MP:
The problem with that theory is that I have seen anything from BARELY visible roan to LOUD roan from the same horses.

We do know there are at least two roan mutations though. The one in all the QHs, PHs, etc., and the one from Catch a Bird. So yes, apparently roan can mutate (as you said, being on KIT who would be surprised by that? :lol: ). I personally believe the only other mutation of it out there are Brabants. The evidence was quite conclusive that Brabant roan was homozygous lethal and yet here UC Davis is proving it's not lethal in the following breeds:
Quarter Horse, Paint Horse, Welsh Pony, Tennessee Walking Horse, Miniature Horse and Gypsy Cob

To my knowledge there have been zero mistakes in the test (horses testing rnrn when they were clearly RN__ for example). If there was more that one mutation out there I think it would have been clear to Davis pretty quickly in their research.

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Songcatcher
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

When I said "roan only" I meant no gray. ;)

OK, I'm with you now. But my point is, can't the roaning on the face be caused by some form of Sabino?

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

accphotography
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

I know people like to put the blame on sabino when things don't fit with what they think a gene can or can't do. But sometimes the simplest answer is the right one. We all know genes have widely varied expression and many often break their own rules... why not roan?

That being said, I'd be willing to consider sabino... but show me a non roan with that much roan on the face (let alone in a specific pattern like the foal). Really. Other than a full blow "lit up" TWH I can't think of a single example I've seen sabino roan a face so heavily. I've NEVER seen sabino roan legs like that, not even on TWH. By the time the TWH have that much roaning they're legs are full white. To have solid legs and that much roaning on the legs and face just seems highly improbable.

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TheRedHayflinger
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

what about this sabino roan TWH...front legs are solid..with roaning.

http://www.cloud9walkers.com/Reagan2009.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or...this one, leg white is higher on him though, but i'm looking at the below the hock on the RH and LF knee
http://www.forestridgefarm.com/forsale/S..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.forestridgefarm.com/forsale/S..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Songcatcher
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Certainly not as heavy roaning on the colt above, and certainly not positioned the same, but definately not Classic Roan.

IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Sold/Sparkles/IMG0487_00_045.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Sold/Sparkles/fktmp57_0148.jpg)

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

accphotography
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Red: The first one's roaning appears to stop at the knees to me. Also his face isn't as heavily roaned as the mares. The second is much closer to the roaning level, but high whites and BODY white. I'd just about guarantee that horse would test SB1+.

To get that density of roaning on the head and all the way down the legs without causing body white, huge blazes, etc... I just haven't seen it.

Song: But is that not just a little roany stripe? I don't see any roaning except for the stray hairs on the middle of the face which are just part of a small marking to me?

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TheRedHayflinger
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Song: But is that not just a little roany stripe? I don't see any roaning except for the stray hairs on the middle of the face which are just part of a small marking to me?

looks like some roaning on the rump as well...your left/horses right..on the hip

accphotography
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

OH! That's tobi. :rofl Yeah I know... go ahead and slap me now. But I'll stand here and proclaim tobiano causes some roaning, and that is one of the cases that is definitely tobi's IMO.

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TheRedHayflinger
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

was doing a search for face roaning and came across this brindle...just thought it looked neat..and..roany...haha

http://www.brindlehorses.com/battyatty/w..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Songcatcher
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

was doing a search for face roaning and came across this brindle...just thought it looked neat..and..roany...haha

http://www.brindlehorses.com/battyatty/w..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

VERY unusual.

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

TheRedHayflinger
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

http://www.brindlehorses.com/battyatty/w..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that is her page on that site...a few body shots and her pedigree(with pictures)..neither parent is grey.

accphotography
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Hmmm... I would have suspected bloodmark (thus gray). I wonder if that would have been there if it hadn't been brindle.

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TheRedHayflinger
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

even though she isn't grey, would it still be a bloodmark?

Just thought she had a very interesting face...hadn't seen her before.

accphotography
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Not technically. But if all that causes a bloodmark is a somatic mutation, maybe. But I thought bloodmarks were incomplete penetrance.

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TheRedHayflinger
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

http://grennellhorses.com/Grennell%27s%2..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://grennellhorses.com/docs_thunder_j..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

can't find a pic of his sire..but here is the dam:
http://grennellhorses.com/alabama_thunde..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and then, what looks to be an older pic of the colt....too bad it's not a full front face shot, but it looks like he outgrew his face roaning:
http://grennellhorses.com/Tom%27s%20Hors..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TheRedHayflinger
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Roan does that sometimes.

Check this one out. He tested negative for gray (his sire was believed to be just gray, turned out to be hetero gray carrying roan):

IMAGE(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii17/lonesomedovepaints/Little%20Baby%20Pony/7160820.jpg)

found an older pic of him on marestare...that one you posted was taken in July

these two were taken Mid-December of that same year:
IMAGE(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii17/lonesomedovepaints/Little%20Baby%20Pony/IMG_6068.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii17/lonesomedovepaints/Little%20Baby%20Pony/IMG_6071.jpg)

looks like he outgrew it..

and then on his first birthday(april), looks like some of it came back!
IMAGE(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii17/lonesomedovepaints/Little%20Baby%20Pony/IMG_6448.jpg)

and then a few months later in June...going away again:
IMAGE(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii17/lonesomedovepaints/Little%20Baby%20Pony/IMG_6550.jpg)

they also have this roan horse:
IMAGE(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii17/lonesomedovepaints/Pea%20Eye%20Parker/IMG_6492.jpg)
also has white roaning on his face in this pic, but not in this pic
IMAGE(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii17/lonesomedovepaints/Pea%20Eye%20Parker/8cdd4a70.jpg)

accphotography
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Well roan IS a seasonal gene so that makes sense that it would come and go.

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TheRedHayflinger
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

i would think it would go away in winter and stay in summer...but that first one it went away it was December..and it the 2nd starting to go away it is June.

I do find him very fascinating though.

And I just read that both posted share a sire.

lillith
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Supressors seem to affect other white inducing KIT mutations (e.g. tobiano) so why not roan? One roan gene heterozygous does classic roan. Extra supressors makes for less roany, unusualy few supressors or a white 'booster' gene makes for more roany.

Or hetero causes 'classic' roan, and h/z causes roaning on the face and points but is unusual because something in the roan action can cause an early abortion of a h/z foal?

http://lillysthoughtoftheday.blogspot.com/
a fairly pointless little piece of cyberspace where I post random thoughts on just about anything, if you're bored any comments are welcome.

Jenks
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Or hetero causes 'classic' roan, and h/z causes roaning on the face and points but is unusual because something in the roan action can cause an early abortion of a h/z foal?

For some reason I was thinking that this was dis-proven. The h/z roan causing embryonic death?

rabbitsfizz
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Not proven or disproven.
OK I have a black mare who is by Rabbit (who I do consider has Sabino roan even though it is minimal and Shetlands do not have Sabino!!) o/o a black base near Leopard/Marble mare.
Her only white marking is a slab of lop sided roan on her face..........
So, where'd that come from, as I find it a bit mysterious....I actually don't have an explanation!

website: please come and visit... http://www.shadowplayminihorses.co.uk/

lillith
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

there are a lot of people fairly commited each way. I think there are some proven (100% breeding record with 100 or more foals on the ground) h/z roan stallions but there aren't as many h/z roans around as should be expected if it is completely simply non-lethal. I love the colour though and would be interested if anyone has any more info.

http://lillysthoughtoftheday.blogspot.com/
a fairly pointless little piece of cyberspace where I post random thoughts on just about anything, if you're bored any comments are welcome.

Third Peppermint
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Wasn't there a theory that there was a homozygous lethal gene next to roan, but that roan itself wasn't lethal?

Monsterpony
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

It is at KIT, which has other theorized homozygous lethal alleles so it wouldn't be too far fetch for there to be a linked lethal mutation.

.

accphotography
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

UC Davis is certain it's not a homozygous lethal.

The suppressor idea is a good one but the incomplete dominant one doesn't work as those loud ones are heteros.

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tjuri
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Sabino-Roans or DW?:

http://www.manyponies.com/stallions/blue..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/maresfillies/b..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/maresfillies/b..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/maresfillies/s..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
they all have one common ancestor:
http://www.manyponies.com/stallions/sequ..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

different sire/bloodline - Father and sons, note the test results of Jester:
http://www.manyponies.com/stallions/sabi..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/stallions/jest..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/Colts/2008colt..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/Colts/2008colt..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

three more mares:
http://www.manyponies.com/maresfillies/d..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/maresfillies/g..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/maresfillies/d..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RiddleMeThis
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

UC Davis is certain it's not a homozygous lethal.

Not to mention you have horses who area tested homozygous now.

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Monsterpony
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

When did the roan test come out and from where?

.

RiddleMeThis
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Re: *thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

Almost 11 months ago to the day from UC Davis.

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