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Splash To Splash??

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RiddleMeThis
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Oh and ACC I will definitely take you up on that offer. Probably be there to help you with it lmao cause I probably won't have much time till I get to you :lol: :lol:

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accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

No worries... I won't have much time for anything before you get here as I'm already scrambling. :rofl It'll give us a down time project for here though... wait... what down time (I think all that will be spent sleeping off our walking and sunburns :rofl )? :rofl

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RiddleMeThis
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Re: Splash To Splash??

No worries... I won't have much time for anything before you get here as I'm already scrambling. :rofl It'll give us a down time project for here though... wait... what down time (I think all that will be spent sleeping off our walking and sunburns :rofl )? :rofl

lmao well we will have at least a bit of down town between Rolex and the Derby at the latest :booty

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Danni
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Well that is interesting with the Sb1's. I guess the only ones I know are in the Gypsy horses, nearly everything tests negative for sb1, except for REALLY REALLY roany ones, they are usually nearly white. I can only think of one homozygous sb1 off hand, and of course she's all white. Not sure if we have DW or not.

So I'm still not entirely convinced most of those markings are due to the sb1, even if they are tested for sb1 if that makes sense. :?

Monsterpony
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Hey RMT and ACC, while y'all are cataloging all the splashes, can you make a note of any that are known or thought to be deaf? That would help to determine to what extent splash must exhibit in order to cause deafness.

.

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Danni: GV/Ds definitely have DW. I've seen several noticeable cases of it. Since SB1 and DW could be closely linked I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens there. But look at the MFTs and Minis and you'll see tons of really boring SB1sb1s.

MP: We can try, but sometimes finding out which are deaf and which aren't isn't easy, but this is a big an interesting project and I suspect we're both willing to do some leg work to make it happen. I agree that could be really interesting. I wonder how cooperative the McQuays might be.

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RiddleMeThis
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I will mark everyone I know of that's deaf and Not deaf.

However, sadly, I don't think its going to be X amount of white equals deaf.

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accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

No, but if we can find even ONE really minimal that is deaf it could be very interesting.

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AppyLady
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I agree with ACC...the pattern is only white but the horse underneath is coloured.

Yes, but you're missing the point. For years people insisted that dominant white didn't even exist. White horses were maximum sabinos. I don't think anyone ever claimed that white was another base color.

Wouldn't it be refreshing if people would simply say "Hey, I was wrong, white horses do exist! How cool is that?" Or "Wow, homozygous roan isn't always lethal after all! Awesome!" Or "Hey, maybe there IS something to this whole LP/PATN thing. Who'da thunk it?!" Rather than stubbornly defending outdated theories.

Just my opinion, of course.

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I agree again, you are so right.

The thing that infuriates me is that even highly knowledgeable genetics/color people insist that the only white horse is one who has no base color, which obviously doesn't exist.

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Morgan
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I recommend checking out the Deaf Horse facebook group, especially for hints on figuring out if a horse might be deaf. They hide it very well but it's the little things that remind you every now and then like walking out and having him take an extra few minutes to wake up and notice you when everyone else already had :

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and for some reason when I searched google for "frame overo" a ton of splash came up. :lol:

Danni
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Danni: GV/Ds definitely have DW. I've seen several noticeable cases of it. Since SB1 and DW could be closely linked I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens there. But look at the MFTs and Minis and you'll see tons of really boring SB1sb1s.

So what I'm seeing as the Sb1 phenotype in the Gypsies is actually more likely DW that's coming along with the Sb1 somehow? Will I make a topic with the tested Sb1 GH's and you say if they look DW? I don't think we get the really minimal Sb1's maybe, as quite a few people test for it. We don't get many Sb1's at all though so it's pretty noticable when we do.

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

It could be, though seeing them would help I think. DW has a distinct phenotype IMO.

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Re: Splash To Splash??
I agree with ACC...the pattern is only white but the horse underneath is coloured.

Yes, but you're missing the point. For years people insisted that dominant white didn't even exist. White horses were maximum sabinos. I don't think anyone ever claimed that white was another base color.

Wouldn't it be refreshing if people would simply say "Hey, I was wrong, white horses do exist! How cool is that?" Or "Wow, homozygous roan isn't always lethal after all! Awesome!" Or "Hey, maybe there IS something to this whole LP/PATN thing. Who'da thunk it?!" Rather than stubbornly defending outdated theories.

Just my opinion, of course.

Once there is proof, it is easy to accept that a theory once accepted by everyone was incorrect.
There is, however, no proof at the present time, of any of the PATN/LP theories.
That and that alone, is what bothers me.
Why would you want anyone to say any of the above to you?
Did you, personally, discover any of this??
Anyway, I have never been one to blindly accept any theory, it is my right to question, and I shall continue to do so.
I am sorry if this annoys you, and causes you to make ridiculous, childish little digs, but that is the way it will be.

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AppyLady
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Hmmmm????? I never mentioned your name at all, not once. Nor did I say anyone should make those remarks to me personally.

Back to splash. Isn't deafness considered a fault?

Sara
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Huh. Digs and more digs. The new, possibly improved, kinder and gentler Sara is trying not to respond.

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accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Bah the digs. It happens. We're adults. :D

IMO I absolutely do not consider deafness a fault and every person I know that has ever owned a deaf horse agrees it is not a fault. At least not in domesticated animals.

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Danni
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I'm not sure what I think of deafness really, I agree it's not really a fault as such, but I'd be fairly unimpressed if someone deliberately bred for deafness too.

Jenks
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I must have gone into numb mode....I missed the digs! LOL What I want to say would make you all barf with warm-and-fuzzy-gobledy-goo.

I don't think anyone would deliberately breed for deafness. Breeding a deaf horse though - the gamble - could be seen as not-so-bright. But you know what money does to people. And denial over it.

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Actually, I know several deaf horse owners who WOULD purposefully breed for deaf, yup. I personally don't really see anything wrong with it, but I'm not looking to get into a moral argument.

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lillith
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Interesting, would they see it as making the horse less spooky or something? I would be concerned mainly because of the problem with voice commands, personaly I use them a lot and would worry about training a deaf horse.

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Jenks
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Interesting, would they see it as making the horse less spooky or something? I would be concerned mainly because of the problem with voice commands, personaly I use them a lot and would worry about training a deaf horse.

I was thinking the same thing about being less spooky - but then I wondered if the other senses would be sharper. Like, when Lacy smells a coyote - it's definitely smell and she can get all worried about it, I have to break her from the focus on it if I've stopped. So, even if sounds didn't spook them, I wonder if smell would sharpen or if it would help at all due to the other senses...

On the other hand, there are those shooting competitions.....you wouldn't have to work them through the gunshots!

Jenks
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Actually, I know several deaf horse owners who WOULD purposefully breed for deaf, yup. I personally don't really see anything wrong with it, but I'm not looking to get into a moral argument.

Life is too short for me to worry about others decisions. Contemplating reasoning is interesting....

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Because they're not spooky. They are HIGHLY laid back individuals about everything. They are MUCH more sensitive to riding cues as well. Many people also say they're just much easier to train in every way.

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Morgan
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Re: Splash To Splash??

:? that might be a generalization for deaf horses but thr are individual quirks like with anything. Most of my horses don't spook at sounds anyway. They spook at visuals, which Chase is far more sensitive to. If anything he's more spooky since he cant tell when something is coming. For instance I can't work with him on windy days, I think everything moving sort of overloads him and he wont pay attention to me. You also have to be extremely careful to get his attention before coming near him or if he sees or feels you suddenly he jumps a mile. The advantage he has is that he focuses very well on my face and movements and touch and is very trusting of me. He has learned to feel movements through the ground, he can sense other horses coming and has reacted to a train.
I personally wouldn't breed a known deaf horse but splash is so hard to predict I wouldn't have a problem with someone who did as long as they were responsible with the foals like with any horse. Chase was originally purchased as a stud prospect and gelded a while after confirming his deafness. I didn't feel it was right for me, personally, to breed a deaf horse. A horse on the level of Gunner is one thing, but I didn't have the money to show Chase to the extent that it would overshadow the deafness.

(pardon if this was a little rambly, I didn't get enough sleep)

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I would agree with that, Morgan, and I actually think it is totally wrong to breed for any animal with a fault.
We have the problem with people thinking that dwarfs bring the height down, so they are acceptable.
Not so.
Same goes for deafness.
It is insane to breed for it, especially in an animal that relies on it's senses as a horse does.
We mess around with animals far too much for my liking, sometimes, and breeding deaf horses is just a step too far.
Like hairless cats and those awful, godforsaken, shortelgged things!

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Maigray
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I have to agree..there is something inherently wrong with deliberately breeding for a such a significant fault. People tend to get tunnel vision and forget the bigger picture. If you constantly have to rationalize your choices, that's not a good sign. I find some good mental checks are these - would you put this in the news? Would it make sense to a layperson? If there was a test that would help you avoid it, would it still be okay to breed for?

You can compare it to the backlash the British Kennel Club experienced after the expose on their breeding practices. Somehow, breeders rationalized to themselves over many years that it was "okay" to breed for a fault if got you an animal that would win in the ring. In the small world of professional breeders, it became an accepted thing. But when it was exposed to the light, it was like they got jolted out of a trance.

Or you can compare it to LWO; when there was no test, the really stand-up breeders did their best to stay away from it, others just accepted it, and others actually bred for it in pursuit of a louder pattern. Then the test came out and it was no longer "okay" to just take your chances or ignore it.

When there is no excuse left - would you still be doing it? Should you?

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Splash To Splash??

The KC expose is still having reverberations.
Another channel took up "Crufts" and all the talking was about soundness and how the breed societies bred for it....HA!!!!!
Justify to me breeding a nice little dog like a Puli and then weighting it down with that ridiculous "corded" thing that was never ever done on the original , herding, animal!
They just don't shed, so the fur matted and went into untidy great dreadlock lumps.
How does that equate to Cords, the Poodles used to have a Corded look, and it went out of fashion.
People are NUTS!! :booty :sign

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tjuri
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Re: Splash To Splash??

[quote="RiddleMeThis"]Yep, shes most definitely SB. Heres a full body photo of her
IMAGE(http://www.mikarmafarm.com/meme09-17-02goodweb.jpg)

These horses are also SB1sb1
IMAGE(http://www.mikarmafarm.com/rmstand2101604web.jpg)

Honestly I would have thought both horses carry splash additionally since the first one's snip is falling to one side and the blaze getting broader at the bottom on the second one. But since we can only test for sb-1 and not yet for splash it's just a theory for now... ;)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??
As one of our goals with the website and forum is to be as scientifically correct as possible, I think we need to avoid pitfalls like that.

Oh, so have LP and PATN been scientifically proven now?

Statistically proven, to quite an extent, yes, at least as far as Lp is concerned. "Science" does incorporate the studies of progeny, etc. And if you haven't noticed, my own personal use of "Patn" has been as a shorthand to describe the gene or genes which allow Lp to be expressed.

So, statistically and phenotypically, we know that there is a gene, that has been named Lp, which must be present to provide the spotting pattern. Statistically/phenotypically, we know that Lplp and LpLp have different forms of expression. Statistically/phenotypically, we know that there are various levels of expression, including having characteristics without having white contrast.

So, we can be scientifically CORRECT by using various theories that have been developed over the years (some what, nearly 50 years since the first scientific research, at least sponsored by the ApHC, which I think was in 1963) without having the scientific PROOF of having Lp and Patn tests.

Diane

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