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Splash To Splash??

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Hey What The
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Splash To Splash??
Is it true that a Splash to Splash breeding results in a non-viable foal? ie will the mare go into foal at all and if she does will the resulting foal both survive and thrive.
Jenks
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Is it true that a Splash to Splash breeding results in a non-viable foal?

No.

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

As Jenks said, no. Splash is not lethal in any form. It is an incomplete dominant (minimal expression in heterozygous form and maximal in homozygous form). To our knowledge the only possible health issues is the chance of any splash being deaf.

Dominant white is believed to be an embryonic homozygous lethal. Frame is a live birth homozygous lethal. Roan was suspected to be an embryonic homozygous lethal, but that's somewhat disproven at least in certain breeds.

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Hey What The
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Re: Splash To Splash??

That is what I suspected. So if you put a homo splash over a homo splash then the resulting foal will only likely die in utero if it is to be born dominant white? Or is that an incorrect assumption?

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Dominant white and splash are unrelated mutations. If your homo splashes also have dominant white that's possible. However a homo splash to a homo splash will only produce another healthy homo splash.

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Hey What The
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Are there any documented pics/evidence of this that I could have a look at? Also, can you please explain in laymans terms what is dominant white. Another question also, what genes would most likely cause a pure white foal with 2 blue eyes (non DD) and another pure white foal with 2 dark eyes (unsure how else to describe her eyes, black?? maybe??) both alive and well. (Not my horses but am curious, genetically speaking)

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Unfortunately the splash mutation has not been located yet and thus there is no laboratory documentation, only breeders' experience and researchers' theories/opinions.

This is the best place to learn about dominant white:
http://duncentralstation.com/PDF/KITGene..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pure white foals with or without blue eyes that live are relatively normal. Some are thought to be maximum splash, some maximum sabino, some maximum frame, some dominant white, some could even be tobiano combinations. Without knowing more about the parents it's almost impossible to tell.

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Hey What The
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Thanks ACC I'll have a read of that - certainly looks interesting :)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??

How do we know splash is an incomplete dominant? Without knowing where splash is, and with splash having a massive range of expression, I don't think we can state that it's an incomplete, complete or in between (presuming that there can be an in-between).

Diane

accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

The only way to determine an incomplete dominant (even once the mutation is FOUND) is to compare the phenotypes of the heterozygotes and homozygotes. Based on the analysis the evidence is pretty clear it's an incomplete dominant.

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RiddleMeThis
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Re: Splash To Splash??

The only way to determine an incomplete dominant (even once the mutation is FOUND) is to compare the phenotypes of the heterozygotes and homozygotes. Based on the analysis the evidence is pretty clear it's an incomplete dominant.

Agreed. Way too many maximals coming from minimals, and maximals producing tons of minimals for it to be anything but incomplete dominant IMO.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Horse #1: http://www.doubleaappaloosas.co.nz/stall..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Splash carrying stallion, should be heterozygous.

Horse #2 http://www.doubleaappaloosas.co.nz/forsa..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Son of the above.

Dam's not on the website (wonder where she is, if they still have her) but she's a nose to toes leopard that should not have any splash in her.

Explain how two h/z splashes can have that drastic a difference in expression.

Diane

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Re: Splash To Splash??

Explain how two h/z splashes can have that drastic a difference in expression.

Well it is possible that the dam carries splash and the son is truly homozygous and not heterozygous.

And ALL genes have a variable expression, even apps.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??
The only way to determine an incomplete dominant (even once the mutation is FOUND) is to compare the phenotypes of the heterozygotes and homozygotes. Based on the analysis the evidence is pretty clear it's an incomplete dominant.

Agreed. Way too many maximals coming from minimals, and maximals producing tons of minimals for it to be anything but incomplete dominant IMO.

Unless the HZ/hz status is not the cause of the difference of expression levels...

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??
Explain how two h/z splashes can have that drastic a difference in expression.

Well it is possible that the dam carries splash and the son is truly homozygous and not heterozygous.

And ALL genes have a variable expression, even apps.

Not likely...I've seen the mare up close and personal, and there was definitely no sock action, and I don't recall any blaze action (maybe a hint of a star), based on how her spots lined up on her.

Diane

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Re: Splash To Splash??

Not likely...I've seen the mare up close and personal, and there was definitely no sock action, and I don't recall any blaze action (maybe a hint of a star), based on how her spots lined up on her.

So you don't think splash can be that minimal?

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Re: Splash To Splash??

I have also never seen a horse that is minimal out of two parents who are maximal. The Promise Welsh is the perfect examples of that.

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accphotography
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Both heterozygous:

IMAGE(http://www.goshka.co.uk/images/Youngstock/Arthur042008.jpg)

IMAGE(http://www.ponderingoaksstables.com/shiner908bfw.jpg)

Expression varies. One can't expect the phenotype of all heterozygotes to be exactly the same IMO.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??
Not likely...I've seen the mare up close and personal, and there was definitely no sock action, and I don't recall any blaze action (maybe a hint of a star), based on how her spots lined up on her.

So you don't think splash can be that minimal?

Normal, centred star?

Diane

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Re: Splash To Splash??

Normal, centred star?

Yep.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??

Both heterozygous:

IMAGE(http://www.goshka.co.uk/images/Youngstock/Arthur042008.jpg)

IMAGE(http://www.ponderingoaksstables.com/shiner908bfw.jpg)

Expression varies. One can't expect the phenotype of all heterozygotes to be exactly the same IMO.

That's my point. With HZ vs. hz, there should be visible differences between the two, i.e., spotted blanket vs. snowcap. With one hz being just on the legs, and the other hz being nearly all white, how can you say that proves that splash is an incomplete dominant? To me, that says that there are other things that come into play with splash expression.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??
Normal, centred star?

Yep.

Then doesn't that defeat the lopsided/bottom heavy/etc. description we use to determine splash?

Diane

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Re: Splash To Splash??
With HZ vs. hz, there should be visible differences between the two, i.e., spotted blanket vs. snowcap. With one hz being just on the legs, and the other hz being nearly all white, how can you say that proves that splash is an incomplete dominant?

Splash is appearing to be incomplete dominant because of the way the breeding is appear to work. Minimal to minimal gives you minimal, max or nothing. Maximal to Maximal is so far ALWAYS giving you another maximal. The breeding results speak pretty highly of splash being incomplete dominant.

The bold is also what we are trying to tell you. There IS a very large visualy difference usually between maximal and minimal.

Maximal
IMAGE(http://thepromisewelsh.com/newstuf/03-26-10/Nistar-Flash

Minimal
IMAGE(http://morgancolors.com/medicinewheeljubileeXsilvershoeshadysadie.jpg)

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Re: Splash To Splash??

Then doesn't that defeat the lopsided/bottom heavy/etc. description we use to determine splash?

No, because just because spash usually looks one way does not mean that it ALWAYS looks that way. Just like tobiano USUALLY puts white across the topline, it doesn't always. That doesn't make the horses without white over the topline NOT tobiano.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Splash To Splash??

I am fully aware that there is a difference between the levels of expression of splash. I couldn't have pulled out those two examples, if I were that ignorant.

My point is that there are distinct differences in Lplp and LpLp, i.e., the absence of spots in the HZ form, which prove it's an incomplete dominant. Whereas with splash, if the same held true, the mostly white could not be hz just as the one above it, because the difference is obviously not being caused by the zygosity. Tobiano is a complete dominant, and its levels of expression vary as greatly as splash's.

Diane

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Re: Splash To Splash??

Whereas with splash, if the same held true, the mostly white could not be hz just as the one above it, because the difference is obviously not being caused by the zygosity.

And again. Thats what we are saying. The heterozygous horses are NOT as white as white as the homozygous horse. And there is usually a VERY distinct visual difference between them.

Tobiano is a complete dominant, and its levels of expression vary as greatly as splash's.

So does LPlp. Leopards can apparently be near leopards to full leopards. Blankets can have huge blankets or a small blanket. Other patterns can also make horses look like false few spots and false snow caps. Does that mean its not incomplete dominant because if it was, there shouldn't be a way for a horse to look like its h

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Re: Splash To Splash??

Tobiano is a complete dominant, and its levels of expression vary as greatly as splash's.

So does LPlp. Leopards can apparently be near leopards to full leopards. Blankets can have huge blankets or a small blanket. Other patterns can also make horses look like false few spots and false snow caps. Does that mean its not incomplete dominant because if it was, there shouldn't be a way for a horse to look like its h

LPlp White expression has nothing to do with LP. PATN controls how much white a leopard has. LP only turns on the spots.

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Re: Splash To Splash??

This is all great info but also confusing lol. I'm told my mare has splash, sabino (with roaning) and frame. But she has brown eyes with pink skin/white hair surrounding both of them. She produced a smokey brown (tested) foal with only a star who is also beginning to roan on all 4 legs (sire unknown). Not sure if the foal info helps anything out, but is there a chance she's DW? Or is there just so much going on that one of the 3 patterns left her eyes brown?

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Re: Splash To Splash??
Tobiano is a complete dominant, and its levels of expression vary as greatly as splash's.

So does LPlp. Leopards can apparently be near leopards to full leopards. Blankets can have huge blankets or a small blanket. Other patterns can also make horses look like false few spots and false snow caps. Does that mean its not incomplete dominant because if it was, there shouldn't be a way for a horse to look like its h

LPlp White expression has nothing to do with LP. PATN controls how much white a leopard has. LP only turns on the spots.

Yes, but what I am trying to say is that a horse who is genetically supposed to look like a leopard or a blanket CAN look like a false snow cap or a false few spot.

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Arock
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Re: Splash To Splash??
Tobiano is a complete dominant, and its levels of expression vary as greatly as splash's.

So does LPlp. Leopards can apparently be near leopards to full leopards. Blankets can have huge blankets or a small blanket. Other patterns can also make horses look like false few spots and false snow caps. Does that mean its not incomplete dominant because if it was, there shouldn't be a way for a horse to look like its h

LPlp White expression has nothing to do with LP. PATN controls how much white a leopard has. LP only turns on the spots.

Yes, but what I am trying to say is that a horse who is genetically supposed to look like a leopard or a blanket CAN look like a false snow cap or a false few spot.

Only if it has other pattern genes besides LP affecting it. For instance, SB1 present with one copy of LP can sometimes create what looks to be a snowcap but genetically is not. That is what I consider a false snowcap to be.
I can honestly say that I have never seen a horse that carries LP only, show anything other than hetero LP patterns or in the H/Z form.

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Re: Splash To Splash??

IMAGE(http://www.ponderingoaksstables.com/shiner908bfw.jpg)

That one looks tobiano more than anything else? Well and splash, but it's not unlike tobiano shetlands. Which I guess would have to be heterozygous splash as one parent is usually solid with no white at all?

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