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Is this a Snowflake

This is my friends Cob Mare - she is absolutely beautiful in the flesh and loves attention. She is on a diet as she is a very easy doer :lol: Anyway I am guessing a chestnut snowflake but I was wondering if there was also some kind of roaning going on too. My friend said she is changing every yr and she said she has some pics of her from when she first got her. Must see is she can get them for me. [img]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t35/Minimad1/Miniature%20Horses/Bann…] [img]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t35/Minimad1/Miniature%20Horses/Bann…] [img]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t35/Minimad1/Miniature%20Horses/Bann…] [img]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t35/Minimad1/Miniature%20Horses/Bann…] [img]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t35/Minimad1/Miniature%20Horses/Bann…]

lipigirl Sun, 06/06/2010 - 15:16

She does look like a snowflake and is also appy roaning out....she doesn't look that fat but then you get to her crest...it is amazing...don't think I have ever seen a crest on a mare like that.....so diet probably a good idea! She also looks very sweet natured, i bet your friend adores her.

Bannerminis Sun, 06/06/2010 - 15:54

My friend LOVES her and said she will always stay with her. She is in the starvation paddock.
She is just such a lovely girl and placid she said till she gets her out and she loves to go

rodeoratdogs Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:20

That would be cool to see the younger pics, I had a Appy gelding that was a chesnut snowflake pattern when he was born and then every year he got more roan and then eventually he was a varnish roan, and he got more brown and black spots on his rump and you could barely see his snowflake pattern anymore under the roan and more spots. She is a bit plump :-D but I really like Cobs and I think she has pretty nice conformation overall.

NZ Appaloosas Sun, 06/06/2010 - 23:10

I would say that it's possible she's snowflake, but it's definite she's roaning...has your friend ever noticed any different hair texture to where the spots show up?

Diane

WhyNot-Ponys Mon, 06/07/2010 - 00:06

Would say she´s a snowflake + varnish.

A friend of mine has a snowflake, too. She´s 4 years now, so it´s possible for her to start with the varnish roaning in the next years. I know of several other snowflakes who roaned bevor reaching their 7th birthday.
All of them were chestnuts of different shades -- does snowflake only occur with chestnuts?

[img]http://ponys-vom-riederhof.de/images_bi…] [img]http://ponys-vom-riederhof.de/images_bi…]

AppyLady Mon, 06/07/2010 - 07:39

She's really cute, in spite of being just a little plump! I'd call her a varnish roan, but I don't think it really matters. Snowflake, varnish...both are just variations of LP roaning. The genetics are the same either way.

rodeoratdogs Mon, 06/07/2010 - 10:03

Here is a couple pics of my horse Jo I had in the 70's, he was solid chestnut with just the sknowflake pattern on his rump as a baby and then he would get more roan every year, me and my girl friends would pull out his winter coat like we were opening a Christmas present curious to see what color he was going to be that year :rofl . the first pic is about 4 years I think and the second is what he ended up like at about 8 years. NZ had a point about texture, I remember the hair where his snowflake pattern was, was longer and poofier, also the dark spots he eventually got on top of that were also a different texture.

[img]http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy13…]

[img]http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy13…]

rabbitsfizz Mon, 06/07/2010 - 11:28

As far as I am concerned Snowflake is just a transient form of varnish, anyway?
She is a lovely mare, in spite of a few extra groceries she is in beautiful condition.

accphotography Mon, 06/07/2010 - 15:27

I think snowflake + varnish. I've seen snowflakes on non chestnuts.

I wonder if she's IR or cushings with that crest.

Bannerminis Mon, 06/07/2010 - 15:47

I will find out about the coat texture although I "think" she mentioned somthing about it and will see if I can get some of the pics from when she first got her.
My friend is mad about this mare but is about 5cm short for a lot of the classes.
Her partner bought her a cob last yr that was skin and bone when she got him but you should see him now he is STUNNING. A big lump of a horse that is very green but willing. He is what I would call my armchair ride lol

NZ Appaloosas Wed, 06/30/2010 - 05:54

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]As far as I am concerned Snowflake is just a transient form of varnish, anyway?
She is a lovely mare, in spite of a few extra groceries she is in beautiful condition.[/quote]

Nope. We've had 3 snowflakes that never got any more pattern--some of the snowflakes came and went, but that's about it.

Diane

rabbitsfizz Wed, 06/30/2010 - 07:57

Then there must be two different patterns, one a True Snowflake which is not that numerous, and one the transient form that I have seen.
The only True Snowflakes I have seen have been in pictures, where there is no way of telling how quickly or if they change.
The only Snowflakes I have owned have been transients.....

TheRedHayflinger Wed, 06/30/2010 - 10:54

[quote="NZ Appaloosas"][quote="rabbitsfizz"]As far as I am concerned Snowflake is just a transient form of varnish, anyway?
She is a lovely mare, in spite of a few extra groceries she is in beautiful condition.[/quote]

Nope. We've had 3 snowflakes that never got any more pattern--some of the snowflakes came and went, but that's about it.

Diane[/quote]

we had a lovely palomino mare up where I worked while in college. She had coin sized white spots all throughout her body--they never changed, never went away, always the same amount. She was a palomino, and you could best see them in the summer when she was shed out, but could still tell they were there in the winter (so long as she was clean..lol). She was half appy, half QH. She had very visible sclera and some mottling and stripey hooves. She was in her mid to late teens at that point...and would be around 20-something now I believe. I worked there for 3 years and visited several times in the years following. We always called her a snowflake appy

NZ Appaloosas Thu, 07/01/2010 - 03:03

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]Then there must be two different patterns, one a True Snowflake which is not that numerous, and one the transient form that I have seen.
The only True Snowflakes I have seen have been in pictures, where there is no way of telling how quickly or if they change.
The only Snowflakes I have owned have been transients.....[/quote]

Could well be...the only 'transient' ones I've seen have all been on blankets, who then start to roan out (some all the way, some not).

TheSwingHorse Thu, 07/01/2010 - 19:15

[quote="accphotography"]I think snowflake + varnish. I've seen snowflakes on non chestnuts.

I wonder if she's IR or cushings with that crest.[/quote]

I was thinking maybe a thyroid problem. We have a mare (perfect in every way) that has a thyroid problem and she's got a really big crest and a plump bottom. It is also causing problems with her getting pregnant. She took the first 5 years we've bred her but not for the last few years. We've been adjusting her diet this year big time and we're getting closer! Her follicles look good but we always miss it by a day or so...

[img]http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28…]

Dirty girl
[url=http://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28…]

Danni Thu, 07/01/2010 - 19:19

That cob mare at the start of the topic though, although a bit fat, she's cob and a big crest isn't really all that unusual. I really don't think she's cushings or thyroid problem like the mare above. I mean the cob mare is big all over LOL!

Monsterpony Thu, 07/01/2010 - 22:28

No such thing as a thyroid problem in horses (at least none has ever been actually proven). Most of those that were 'diagnosed' as hypothyroid are probably insulin resistant.

TheSwingHorse Fri, 07/02/2010 - 20:35

[quote="Monsterpony"]No such thing as a thyroid problem in horses (at least none has ever been actually proven). Most of those that were 'diagnosed' as hypothyroid are probably insulin resistant.[/quote]

I've read that numerous times. My damn vet keeps referring to it as I said so she has me in the habit. >_<

Are there many articles regarding that?

Monsterpony Fri, 07/02/2010 - 22:44

[quote]Vet Clin North Am Equine Pract. 2002 Aug;18(2):305-19, vii.
Equine thyroid dysfunction.

Frank N, Sojka J, Messer NT 4th.

Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN 37996-4545, USA. nfrank@utk.edu
Abstract

Hypothyroidism is the most common type of thyroid gland dysfunction reported in horses. Primary, secondary, and tertiary causes of hypothyroidism are discussed. Equine hypothyroidism remains a controversial endocrine disorder because extrathyroidal factors, including the administration of drugs and systemic diseases, affect serum triiodothyronine (T3) and thyroxine (T3) concentrations in horses. Accurate diagnosis of hypothyroidism therefore requires assessment of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis. Diagnostic procedures for evaluating thyroid gland function are outlined and results of studies utilizing experimental models are discussed.[/quote]
This paper, published back in 2002, on thyroid conditions in horses referenced four older papers documenting cases of primary hypothyroidism. Of those four cases, one horse had hair loss, two had muscle problems (myopathies) and one had no milk production (agalactia). All those papers are listed below. No cases were published linking obesity and primary hypothyroidism.

[quote]Alopecia associated with hypothyroidism in a horse
O. STANLEY 1 and C. J. HILLIDGE 1
1 Department of Veterinary Clinical Medicine, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Illinois, Urbana, Illinois 61801, USA [/quote]

[quote]Equine thyroid function tests: A preliminary investigation

Alert
This article is not included in your organization's subscription. However, you may be able to access this article under your organization's agreement with Elsevier.

P. Harris, D. Marlin and J. Gray

The Animal Health Trust, PO Box 5, Newmarket, Suffolk, CB8 7DW, UK
Accepted 19 June 1991.
Available online 20 November 2006.

Abstract

A similar and significant (P < 0.001) increase in plasma thyroxine (T4) concentration was seen in seven clinically normal thoroughbred horses 2 h after the intravenous administration of either 2.5 iu or 5 iu of thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) with a peak response around 4 h after administration. The intravenous administration of 0.2, 0.5 or 1 mg thyrotrophin releasing hormone (TRH) resulted in a significant (P < 0.01) increase in T4 concentration in three groups of animals; six thoroughbreds in full work, five thoroughbreds at rest and four ponies at rest. The peak response was recorded at 3 or 4 h after administration. A significant difference between the groups in the degree of response to TRH was only found between the thoroughbreds in work and those at rest with 1 mg TRH (P < 0.05). When two additional ponies were investigated in a similar way, a reduced response to TRH was observed: a pregnant mare had a similar response to 5 iu TSH as the thoroughbreds; the other pony also showed a lowered response to TSH. In a group of 2- or 3-year-old thoroughbreds in training no difference in the T4 response 4 h after intravenous administration of 0.5 mg TRH could be determined, according to the month, age, sex or work intensity. Although resting T4 concentrations did not differ significantly between animals believed to be suffering from the equine rhabdomyolysis syndrome (ERS) and those suffering from a variety of other conditions, some ERS sufferers may have a lowered response to TRH.
[/quote]

[quote]
Equine thyroid function tests: A preliminary investigation

Alert
This article is not included in your organization's subscription. However, you may be able to access this article under your organization's agreement with Elsevier.

P. Harris, D. Marlin and J. Gray

The Animal Health Trust, PO Box 5, Newmarket, Suffolk, CB8 7DW, UK
Accepted 19 June 1991.
Available online 20 November 2006.

Abstract

A similar and significant (P < 0.001) increase in plasma thyroxine (T4) concentration was seen in seven clinically normal thoroughbred horses 2 h after the intravenous administration of either 2.5 iu or 5 iu of thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) with a peak response around 4 h after administration. The intravenous administration of 0.2, 0.5 or 1 mg thyrotrophin releasing hormone (TRH) resulted in a significant (P < 0.01) increase in T4 concentration in three groups of animals; six thoroughbreds in full work, five thoroughbreds at rest and four ponies at rest. The peak response was recorded at 3 or 4 h after administration. A significant difference between the groups in the degree of response to TRH was only found between the thoroughbreds in work and those at rest with 1 mg TRH (P < 0.05). When two additional ponies were investigated in a similar way, a reduced response to TRH was observed: a pregnant mare had a similar response to 5 iu TSH as the thoroughbreds; the other pony also showed a lowered response to TSH. In a group of 2- or 3-year-old thoroughbreds in training no difference in the T4 response 4 h after intravenous administration of 0.5 mg TRH could be determined, according to the month, age, sex or work intensity. Although resting T4 concentrations did not differ significantly between animals believed to be suffering from the equine rhabdomyolysis syndrome (ERS) and those suffering from a variety of other conditions, some ERS sufferers may have a lowered response to TRH.
[/quote]
[quote]Thyroidal and prolactin secretion in agalactic mares

Alert
This article is not included in your organization's subscription. However, you may be able to access this article under your organization's agreement with Elsevier.

F.N. Thompson1, A.B. Caudle1, R.J. Kemppainen2, T.M. Nett3, J. Brown1 and D.J. Williams1

1University of Georgia, College of Veterinary Medicine, Athens, GA 30602 USA

2Auburn University, School of Veterinary Medicine, Auburn, AL 36849 USA

3Colorado State University, Department of Physiology & Biophysics Fort Collins, CO 80526 USA
Received 2 July 1985;
accepted 26 February 1986.
Available online 7 October 2003.

Abstract

A study was designed to examine serum concentrations of prolactin (PRL) and iodothyronines before and after thyrotropin releasing hormone (TRH) administration to agalactic (n = 26) and normally (n = 8) lactating mares. Two mg TRH was given intramuscularly (i.m.) twice daily on Day 1 (day of delivery) through Day 5. Jugular venous blood was collected on Days 1 and 5 before TRH (time 0) and at 1 and 3 h post-TRH. Basal serum concentrations of thyroxin (T4) were different (P < 0.05) on Day 1 (1.87 vs 1.37 μg/dl) and Day 5 (1.72 vs 1.13 μg/dl) in the normal mares and agalactic mares, respectively. There was no difference in the T4 response to TRH. While basal serum concentrations of triiodothyronine (T3) were not different, agalactic mares responded with greater (P < 0.05) serum concentrations T3 to TRH on Day 1. Following linear regression of the PRL response to TRH, slope of the lines between groups did not differ; however, elevations were significantly (P < 0.05) greater (1.79 vs 1.28 ng/ml) in control mares compared with agalactic mares, respectively, on Day 1·at 1 h post-TRH. A similar difference existed at time 0 and 1 h on Day 5. Consequently, agalactic mares had reduced basal serum T4 values; the PRL data leads us to suggest that secretion of this hormone may be insufficient in agalactic mares.
[/quote]

And a different article:

[quote]J Vet Intern Med. 2002 Jan-Feb;16(1):109-15.
Thyroid-stimulating hormone in adult euthyroid and hypothyroid horses.

Breuhaus BA.

North Carolina State University, College of Veterinary Medicine, Raleigh 27606, USA. betta_breuhaus@ncsu.edu
Abstract

The purpose of this study was to validate a thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) assay in a model of equine hypothyroidism. Thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH) stimulation tests were performed in 12 healthy adult mares and geldings, aged 4 to greater than 20 years. before and during administration of the antithyroid drug propylthiouracil (PTU) for 6 weeks. Serum concentrations of equine TSH, total and free thyroxine (T4), and total and free triiodothyronine (T3) were measured. Before PTU administration, mean +/- standard deviation baseline concentrations of TSH were 0.40 +/- 0.29 ng/mL. TSH increased in response to TRH, reaching a peak concentration of 0.78 +/- 0.28 ng/mL at 45 minutes. Total and free T4 increased from 12.9 +/- 5.6 nmol/L and 12.2 +/- 3.5 pmol/L to 36.8 +/- 11.4 nmol/L and 23.1 +/- 5.9 pmol/L, respectively, peaking at 4-6 hours. Total and free T3 increased from 0.99 +/- 0.51 nmol/L and 2.07 +/- 1.14 pmol/L to 2.23 +/- 0.60 nmol/l and 5.78 +/- 1.94 pmol/L, respectively, peaking at 2-4 hours. Weekly measurements of baseline TSH and thyroid hormones during PTU administration showed that total and free T, concentrations fell abruptly and remained low throughout PTU administration. Total and free T4 concentrations did not decrease dramatically until weeks 5 and 4 of PTU administration, respectively. A steady increase in TSH concentration occurred throughout PTU administration, with TSH becoming markedly increased by weeks 5 and 6 (1.46 +/- 0.94 ng/mL at 6 weeks). During weeks 5 and 6 of PTU administration, TSH response to TRH was exaggerated, and thyroid hormone response was blunted. Results of this study show that measurement of equine TSH in conjunction with thyroid hormone measurement differentiated normal and hypothyroid horses in this model of equine hypothyroidism.[/quote]

This paper is primarily on developing testing for thyroid hormone levels, but it references the below paper that showed even with the removal of the thyroid, obesity was not seen in horses. Unfortunately the paper was published in 1974 so I'd have to go find a print copy of the journal.

[quote]Cornell Vet. 1974 Apr;64(2):276-95.
Equine hypothyroidism: the long term effects of thyroidectomy on metabolism and growth in mares and stallions.

Lowe JE, Baldwin BH, Foote RH, Hillman RB, Kallfelz FA.[/quote]

Every equine internal medicine vet I have talked to about this has said that there is no evidence that obesity is linked to thyroid problems in horses. Now, some vets put a horse on thyroid hormone, which will cause weight loss. That is because thyroid hormone will boost metabolism.