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SEAL Brown - discussion.

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accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

One particular perlino I know is suspected to be a brown base because her sire is Ata and she is SOOO dark she actually looks smokey cream. Her dam is a normal looking perlino but is suspected heterozygous. They should all be tested soon though.

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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

JMO but brown based perlinos tend to be MUCH darker than bay based... so yup, I bet she's AAt as opposed to AtAt.

There is some evidence that At/At horses generally tend to be lighter expressed than At/a horses, too, so that could be a factor ... or not. LOL!

Nancy Castle
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accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Really!? Interesting. I wonder if the same goes for AA. How light are AtAt in comparison to A_?

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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.
JMO but brown based perlinos tend to be MUCH darker than bay based... so yup, I bet she's AAt as opposed to AtAt.

Thanks :-) I appreciate that feedback...I wondered if anyone had paid attention to those statistics. I just took the mare to GA last weekend or I'd pull hair and do the new At test just to see.

I would caution against assuming that brown based perlinos will generally be paler than bay based perlinos. Smoky creams can all too often be as pale/white looking as cremellos, so as far as I've seen, having a "blacker" base doesn't seem to be a determining factor IMO.

I don't know that there are any statistics on brown based vs. bay based perlinos. We would need to see quite a number of them tested for "At" and separate them into 4 categories ... Aa , At/a, At/A and At/At ... and then study their phenotypes very closely. That would require seeing quite a number of horses to get a clear idea of the "normal" expressions for each of those 4 perlino types.

Nancy Castle
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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Really!? Interesting. I wonder if the same goes for AA.

Since "A" fully resticts the black from the body, there really wouldn't be the same potential effect with AA vs. Aa like might be possible with AtAt vs At/a".

How light are AtAt in comparison to A_?

I want to clarify here that when I said there is some evidence, I don't mean to suggest that it's proven. Just that when Michal was testing browns in his study, he did notice something of a tendency for At/At horses to be lighter expressions than their At/a parents, as I understood it.

But this may be subjective, and could be dependent upon what other modifiers might also be present. So, again, it's not at all proven, but just something of a possibility.

I do have one familial example that I can show you. Let me find the images and figure out the best way to show it to everyone from here.

Nancy Castle
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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

They certainly do Nancy! I thought breeding this mare to OHK would "lock up" a buckskin or palomino for me, and in fact, I had people waiting to purchase a buckskin colt from this cross should I get so lucky...I hate to be a pessimist but I seem to be the only person I know that can mess up a sure thing LOL :flower

:rofl
That's just too darned funny! But know that I'm laughing with you, not at you. Then again, maybe you're not laughing, huh?

Nancy Castle
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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

thanks for the post dun! :D

You're very welcome!

With any luck, I can get that article written up and posted to my DCS site by sometime next week. I tend to tweak a lot, and it can be tricky to figure out the very best way to word some of these explanations, too.

Nancy Castle
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jafo
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I want to clarify here that when I said there is some evidence, I don't mean to suggest that it's proven. Just that when Michal was testing browns in his study, he did notice something of a tendency for At/At horses to be lighter expressions than their At/a parents, as I understood it.

[/quote]

By lighter expression do you mean less or more black? I'd guess lighter expression=less black=more red=a lighter horse overall but would love clarification.

Jaime Foutty

duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I hope this will work to display the image ... hopefully I tweaked my hot link protection settings correctly ...

IMAGE(http://www.tdmequinedesign.com/ExpressionsBrown-collage.jpg)

This collage is my "Expressions of Brown" collage that I made for a Yahoogroups list on colors. Note that horses #1 thru #5 were all tested for the At mutation.

Horse #1 (At/a) is the sire of Horse #2 (At/At), and Horse #2's dam is so flipping darkly expressed that even in full New England winter coat, she is black all over ... no red-brown or tan muzzle even. But with the conventional agouti test, she came back "Aa", and with the seal brown test, it came back "At/a". No doubt that she is genetically a brown and she produces like a brown, too.

At any rate, Horse #2 often has a more truly brownish looking body color as opposed to a body coloring that is black or black-brown.

Also take note of Horses #6, #7, and #8. Horse #8 is the offspring of #6 & #7. None are tested, but based on progeny colors, #6 (sire) and #7 (dam) are both At/a.

It's possible that the lighter, more brownish colored #8 (offspring) is At/At, and that may be why her coat lacks the depth of black on her body?

And just because it's interesting ... also note the difference in color between Horse #8 and her truly bay half-sibling behind her. Note the darker, brownish coloration of #8 and the clear, red coat of the bay. The bay is by the same brown sire, but her dam is a chestnut mare known to be at least Aa (with bay agouti).

Nancy Castle
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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I want to clarify here that when I said there is some evidence, I don't mean to suggest that it's proven. Just that when Michal was testing browns in his study, he did notice something of a tendency for At/At horses to be lighter expressions than their At/a parents, as I understood it.

By lighter expression do you mean less or more black? I'd guess lighter expression=less black=more red=a lighter horse overall but would love clarification.[/quote]

Good question!! I mean less black, though not necessarily more red. The black may be lightened to a true brownish shade. See the post with the collage and I think it will be a bit more clear.

EDIT: Rather than saying "less black", I should have said that the black pigment might be lightened to more of a true brown looking shade. The black pigment could still be quite widely distributed on the body, but lightened, in other words.

And, it could be that the horse might have more red area ... but not enough horses have been studied yet to be sure just how reliable this idea might be, and other factors could just as easily create a similar coat expression so that one couldn't use the shade as a reliable predictor to visually say a horse is At/At vs. At/a. Testing would still be the fastest and most reliable way to know for sure.

Nancy Castle
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jafo
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Nothing like a visual! thank you!

Jaime Foutty

duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Here is an example of a buckskin stallion who passed away recently (Sept 2009). Although his owner didn't have him tested, we were able to determine that he was At/At based on his produce in general, as well as test results on offspring.

Out of 70+ offspring, he never sired a black or smoky black, so it's safe to say he proved himself homozygous for agouti. Based on his phenotype, I had long believed him to be a lighter expression of brown buckskin ... and if he is a visual brown, then both agouti alleles would have to be At, because having one A (bay) would have caused him to have a clearer coated buckskin phenotype. Produce colors and eventual testing support the At/At deduction.

Blacksaddle Starbuck can be seen here:
http://www.colorfulmorgans.com/baymount/starbuck.html

KRP Pixie Pat - clear bay coated buckskin mare - 3rd from bottom of page.
http://www.colorfulmorgans.com/Devine/mares.html
She has not produced a black offspring, her dam is a chestnut that could be "harboring" agouti, so there is the possibility that she could be homozygous agouti, and no way to tell if the other might be A or At.

Devine Spirit of Hope (Blacksaddle Starbuck x KRP Pixie Pat) - Perlino - Ee AA
http://www.colorfulmorgans.com/Devine/spiritofhope.html
Spirit's test results as I reported were via the conventional agouti test. Since his sire is a brown buckskin, one is actually "At". His dam is obviously clear bay coated buckskin, so his other agouti could be "A".

Devine Gemini (Blacksaddle Starbuck x KRP Pixie Pat) - Perlino - Ee AA
http://www.colorfulmorgans.com/Devine/gemini.html
Full brother to Spirit above, so same story.

Define Mountain Echo (Devine Spirit of Hope x Devine Catalina) - tested At/At
3rd down - http://www.colorfulmorgans.com/Devine/mares.html
Proof that Devine Spirit of Hope has at least one "At". Echo is generally not a super darkly expressed brown buckskin, possibly supporting theory that homozygous At might be lighter expressions. However, maybe not, as it seems to me that the range of expression for heterozygous brown buckskins is widely varied. Still, she's interesting.

At the very top of Page #14 of this discussion, ACC had posted two pics of buckskins ... the first a clear (bay) buckskin, the other a very, very dark brown buckskin. That dark brown buckskin was from this breeding program as well ... I believe that was Devine Gunsmoke (Blacksaddle Starbuck X Devine Golly Gee Wiz).

Anyway, just thought ya'll might find these horses interesting.

Nancy Castle
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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Interesting daughter/mother scenario - brown buckskin and brown ...

The daughter ... as a foal ...
IMAGE(http://tdmequinedesign.com/tempweb/IndigoSierra-foalcollage.jpg)
Indigo Sierra's sire was a smoky black, so only "aa" for him. Sierra's dam is a very dark brown mare. At birth you can see that Sierra was a dun-wanna-be. But her pattern of darker face masking was NOT of the dun patterning ... this pattern was thought to be a dun pattern (and some still think it's so), but it's not. Dun face masking on foals is either lower on the nose closer to the nostrils, or as seen on some grulla foals, may be a darkish charcoal coloring on more of their face. But it doesn't "raccoon" around the eyes ... THAT is a brown agouti trait.

The daughter as an adult, with her mother ...
IMAGE(http://tdmequinedesign.com/tempweb/IndigoSierra-Summer.jpg)
Note how generally light Sierra's expression of brown is compared to her very dark brown mother. Since Sierra's sire was a smoky black, we know the only agouti she has is from her mother.

BTW, Sierra is tested to be At/a, so she definitely is a brown buckskin. Her dam, Summer, was tested a few years ago with the conventional agouti test to be heterozygous for agouti, so she only has one agouti, also, and we know that has to be brown. I don't think their owner bothered to have Summer tested for At, as her daughter's test results pretty much prove what her results would be.

Sierra is a good example of just how variable the expression of brown can be from parent to offspring (dark expressed parent, light expressed offspring, in this case). I don't know if the cream gene has any bearing on it or not, but I do find it interesting.

Nancy Castle
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accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Well I am absolutely blown away. Completely. I am a big believer of brown as a whole, and I like to think I've studied it as much as I can and I thought I understood it fairly well... NOT.

When you said you thought Blacksaddle Starbuck was a smokey brown (even if he WAS AtAt), I laughed out loud. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I have a very open mind, especially about brown, however I have a certain phenotype(s) in mind when I think smokey brown and another certain one when I think sooty buckskin. That stallion FULLY fits in the sooty buckskin category. I don't see any obvious brown traits on him at all.

Then you show me Define Mountain Echo who has even LESS of a smokey brown look, but she's TESTED. *GAH* *pulls hair out*

Sierra is EXCEPTIONALLY light. I absolutely 100% would have called her a buckskin with light sooty until the day I died. I'm just floored that is not what she is. She looks even less brown than Define. :evil:

Now I'm starting to question just how light a brown with no cream can be. I'm betting some of those very bay looking horses with just a bit of a sooty look over their topline are actually brown... based on what these smokey browns are showing.

So I'm having to totally rework my thoughts on brown. I'm either back to believing brown IS sooty(even if it IS an allele of agouti) or that there is no such thing as a sooty black base (because everything I've interpreted as sooty is proving to be brown right now). Do you have any examples of a sooty looking black base that is NOT positive for brown?

Thanks for the info... color me lost for a while.

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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

To respond point-by-point more easily, I’m putting ACC’s text in blue, and mine in black, rather than using the Quote feature.

Well I am absolutely blown away. Completely. I am a big believer of brown as a whole, and I like to think I've studied it as much as I can and I thought I understood it fairly well... NOT.

You are being WAAYY too hard on yourself!! You understand it much better than you’re giving yourself credit for at the moment ACC :D I think you just need to expand your knowledge base a little bit to include the lighter expressions is all. Seriously … you’re light years ahead of may people!

When you said you thought Blacksaddle Starbuck was a smokey brown (even if he WAS AtAt), I laughed out loud. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I have a very open mind, especially about brown, …

You would think I would be used to being scoffed at over the lighter shades of brown … I certainly should be as certain people in my own chose breed have scoffed at me and tried to prevent me from sharing info with people in a breed specific color forum by regularly closing the topic of brown from being discussed for some time on this topic.
Not to worry, though. I’m not taking your laughing over Starbuck personally, because I get it … I understand how hard it can be at first.

… however I have a certain phenotype(s) in mind when I think smokey brown and another certain one when I think sooty buckskin. That stallion FULLY fits in the sooty buckskin category. I don't see any obvious brown traits on him at all.

At one time he would have been textbook sooty buckskin to me, too. But, because of what I have observed as I’ve studied “sooty” looking horses over the past several years, I see brown agouti traits on him.

Then you show me Define Mountain Echo who has even LESS of a smokey brown look, but she's TESTED. *GAH* *pulls hair out*
Sierra is EXCEPTIONALLY light. I absolutely 100% would have called her a buckskin with light sooty until
the day I died. I'm just floored that is not what she is. She looks even less brown than Define.

Totally boggles the mind when you’ve learned something a certain way and known it to be that way for so long, eh? BTW, Sierra does have times when she’s darker, as does Devine Mtn Echo. But I don’t think either of them are ever super dark, though.

Now I'm starting to question just how light a brown with no cream can be. I'm betting some of those very bay looking horses with just a bit of a sooty look over their topline are actually brown... based on what these smokey browns are showing.

Here is an example of what I have personally come to view as a buckskin displaying sooty, though he doesn't tend to show it very extensively.

IMAGE(http://tdmequinedesign.com/tempweb/CJSparklingGem.jpg)
Dusty is clear coated buckskin in summer coat, with a rather faint counter shading dorsal. But in winter coat he displays some seasonal sooty traits, including a much darkened counter shading dorsal, wither markings, and sometimes masking on his face, I believe.

Some may gasp in horror at my next statement, but here it is anyway …
Thow out your Sponenberg books!!

Okay, don’t throw them out. Just ignore any and all information regarding sooty. Get OVER Sponenberg and his sooty this, sooty that. According to him, sooty seems to be a super modifier that does different things to different coat colors. He quite literally seems to use sooty as a dumping ground to explain away anything that is darker than average.

Liver chestnuts are sooty? So, on a bay, sooty causes a pattern of black shading that doesn’t cover all or most all of the horse’s body, but it does on chestnut? Seriously?!! Sorry, I’m not buying it. Especially since chestnuts cannot make black pigment in the first place. IMO, it’s something quite different from sooty.

Not a fan of Sponeberg here. Okay, he was quite progressive … in his day. But he has not kept up with the latest findings, IMO, nor is he doing any of the real research in equine color genetics that I’m aware.

At any rate, I would encourage people to “just let go” of what they have been taught about sooty. Once you do that, it becomes easier to see the brown. LOL!

So I'm having to totally rework my thoughts on brown. I'm either back to believing brown IS sooty(even if it IS an allele of agouti) or that there is no such thing as a sooty black base (because everything I've interpreted as sooty is proving to be brown right now).

For a while I started to doubt that sooty existed at all, too!! But it does exist, and it is separate from brown. It’s just not exactly as we were originally taught via Sponenberg … though I don’t fault him for at first mistaking lighter brown expressions for sooty, mind you.

Do you have any examples of a sooty looking black base that is NOT positive for brown?

I don't know that I do have pics of tested horses to share. But see Dusty’s pics above. He has never been tested, and he is no longer owned by my friend any more in order for him to be tested. But I cannot recall any of the lighter expressed browns or brown buckskins that I’ve seen who were clear coated like Dusty is most of the time.

And this is a buckskin Morgan mare I had on lease for two years … she was 18 yrs young in these pics. Excuse the not great photo clarity, as they were taken with a really crappy digital camera. With that said, though, they are still fairly accurate for color.

IMAGE(http://tdmequinedesign.com/tempweb/SaintClaire-SpringSummer.jpg)
Note that in the top image, she has a dirty appearance. That’s not poor image quality! That’s her seasonal sootiness in the spring of that year. She had not shed her winter coat completely yet and was very sooty/dirty looking. In winter and summer coats she is clear coated buckskin. In the fall, for about 2 weeks she would look sooty/dirty, then again for a couple of weeks as she transitioned through her spring shed she was sooty/dirty, too. Her dam was chestnut, so nothing visual in the agouti department to compare. But she had to have gotten agouti from her dam as her sire was a smoky black, so I know she could only have had one agouti. And I strongly believe she was “Aa” (bay agouti) with seasonal sooty … not “At/a”.

I really do suspect that sooty is more of a seasonally triggered trait on most horses. Some may retain it more of the year, though.

Thanks for the info... color me lost for a while.

I’m sure you won’t be lost for long!! You’re a pretty sharp cookie :D

Nancy Castle
[url=http://www.duncentralstation.com]Dun Central Station[/url]

jafo
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

1st comment: WOW Nancy.
2nd comment: When we say brown buckskin or smokey brown, are we now referring to the same thing here, E_ At_ nCr? Or would we reserve smokey brown for the times that we know the horse to be a double dilute brown instead of "just" perlino?

Jaime Foutty

duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

1st comment: WOW Nancy.
2nd comment: When we say brown buckskin or smokey brown, are we now referring to the same thing here, E_ At_ nCr? Or would we reserve smokey brown for the times that we know the horse to be a double dilute brown instead of "just" perlino?

I believe ACC uses smokey brown for the same thing that I call brown buckskin. I don't use the term "smoky" for anything that has A- or At-. I reserve use of the term "smoky" for E- aa plus cream gene(s). In other words, only for single and double cream dilutes who have a black base color, not bay or brown base color. But that's my personal preference to not "mix terms".

And just to be clear, I don't use a different names for brown buckskins who are At/a vs. At/At. Both are brown buckskins. For an At/At brown buckskin, I would say "brown buckskin homozygous for At", or something to that effect.

Nancy Castle
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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Sorry, I forgot to address what one might call a perlino that is brown based rather than bay based. And I don't believe there is a special term/color name for them. I just refer to them as "brown based perlino" at this time.

Hmmm ... maybe they could be called "seal perlino"??

And instead of the drab sounding "brown buckskin" and the mixed termed "smokey buckskin", E- At- Cr/N horses could be called "seal buckskins"!!

Duns that have a brown base could be seal dun (which I've seen used somewhere).

Nancy Castle
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

wow I LOVE this thread! I have learned so much :D

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accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I use smokey brown because that's what Mary Haas started me on. I think she used it because she honestly believes that a person can not see cream's effects on a brown (like they look like standard browns, which you have proven completely wrong). I'm not opposed to changing it. :D For some reason though, I just don't like using buckskin for these horses because most of them don't look like buckskins unless you call them "sooty buckskins". But I guess saying "brown buckskin" is closer to "sooty buckskin" and "smokey brown". Ok... I think I'll change it. Although I think I like seal buckskin better, it only seems to work for certain phenotypes.

I'm all over the "seal perlino" idea. It's much better than the other ideas I've heard.

As far as Sponenburg. Let's just say I've never read a single book of his. None of my opinions have anything to do with his to my knowledge (unless I've picked them up through other people that have read his work). I have read enough snippets of his work to know that I will not read his work. He may have been ahead of his time back then, but even his newest book is BEHIND the time now. Not to mention I can't stand that he just makes up random terms for things. But that's all a matter of opinion of course. I just wanted you to know my belief in sooty didn't come from him.

As far as liver chestnuts, it depends what you mean. I am one of the few people I know (maybe one of two I know personally) that believes liver chestnuts are not sooty. I personally believe liver is it's own gene that modifies chestnut (possibly only 'ee' horses).

That being said, I do believe sooty exists and I do believe some chestnuts or not really liver chestnut, but sooty chestnut. Some people call those "false liver".

I think this is it's own gene of liver chestnut:
http://www.bloomfieldfarm.com.au/Images/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think this is sooty on chestnut:
http://colormorgans.tripod.com/LSRtanque..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pic..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interestingly, they look very similar to your suspected sooty buckskin.

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lillith
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Just a random comment, I came up with 'sealskin' vs buckskin, liked the sound of it. not much use as a term if no-one else knows what it means though. lol.

http://lillysthoughtoftheday.blogspot.com/
a fairly pointless little piece of cyberspace where I post random thoughts on just about anything, if you're bored any comments are welcome.

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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I have a friend who started calling them brownskin after I explained this "new" thing to her :D

Jaime Foutty

Daylene Alford
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

*whew* This is quite a thread! Some interesting ideas and comments. I've got some serious 'digesting' and re-reading to do now.

Regarding bay, brown and 'seal' one of the mares in my keeping, Sable Wild Fantazee, came with her Canadian Morgan registration papers listing her as bay, when I had Tazee's registration transferred to the American Morgan Horse Registry I changed her color to brown (I call her seal brown) she can be viewed here:
http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd77/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So is she brown or bay? *ponders* I don't feel compelled to have her DNA tested however, just curious.

I've had enough exposure and experience with colors that don't look like what they're called. For example 'my' VERY 'sooty' palomino Morgan mare, Metigoshe Mariah, who can be seen here from foal to the last set of pictures I took of her in September of 2008:
http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd77/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I had numerous people try and tell me she couldn't be palomino which is why I did have her DNA tested, yup she's definitely palomino!

A thanks to ACC for posting a picture of another mare in my keeping, LSR Tanqueray Sterling, who can be seen here:
http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd77/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I had never considered her 'sooty' chestnut and her most recent pictures make me question such a classification for her. I am curious as to why she might be considered such.

The second example that ACC used for 'sooty' chestnut looks a LOT like another of the chestnut mares in my keeping, Questor Mystique, seen here:
http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd77/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mystique started out a light flaxen and started darkening as a two year old until one would not even see her as flaxen now. I can see her perhaps as an example of 'sooty' chestnut.

Although I realize this is a brown discussion the topic of 'sooty' has been discussed numerous times and I am curious as to others thoughts on Mariah's dam, Metigoshe Marquessa:
http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd77/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kessa is registered as a dark/black chestnut but seeing her daughter Mariah is a VERY dark 'sooty' chestnut I would wonder if Kessa is not a quintessential example of a VERY 'sooty' chestnut. If not what else, she certainly doesn't look liver. Note her color in the two foal pictures of her in the album link.

This is all VERY fascinating stuff and I'm pleased to have found this list so I can hopefully expand my understanding of equine color.

~"There are no whole truths; all truths are half-truths. It is trying to treat them as whole truths that plays the devil." – Alfred North Whitehead~

duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

As you know from having been on MorganColors Yahoogroups list in the past, the black chestnut color is not an altogether uncommon shade of chestnut in the Morgan breed. It's not super common, but it's not super rare, either. Some think black chestnut is the very darkest shade of liver, but I don't know. I honestly am not sure on this one.

Liver chestnut and black chestnut are generally the base coat colors of those dark palominos. Since Mariah's dam is a black chestnut, it stands to reason that Mariah is also black chestnut based.

But I'm not sure that all black chestnut based palominos are as dark as Mariah, though. I've seen plenty of offspring, both chestnut and palomino, out of various black chestnuts and the offspring shades do seem to vary to some degree. But it is hard to study because "e" genes can be "hidden" by the none "red" coat of a black, brown or bay parent, so that we cannot see what shade of red they have.

Luckily, there is one researcher who is sort of studying some black chestnut and liver chestnuts as a side project, trying to first determine the mode of inheritance of these shades.

As an FYI, I do get the impression that at least some of the current researchers find "sooty" to be just a term used as a catch-all. One even laughed out loud on the phone when I asked what they thought about the sooty theory. Cross my heart ... there was laughter! Then they collected themselves and basically said that was ancient info and to move on. Then it was my turn to laugh out loud and explain that I hadn't bought "sooty" as the explanation for everything in a number of years.

If not sooty, then what? Well, we're learning that "sooty" bay or "sooty" buckskin is often the result not of sooty, but of the At gene.

So with regard to black chestnuts, liver chestnuts, and their palomino results, why not a gene that acts to darken the red pigment of chestnut horses?

INTERESTING!! Get this! Even Sponenberg admits in a round about way that he uses sooty as a dumping ground for what are surely multiple genetic controls. For those who have his book that was published in 2003 (pinto mare and foal on cover), turn to page 27 and read the first paragraph under "Sooty: Genetic Control".

He says that sooty on black and bay colors is probably genetically different from sooty on chestnut. And he goes on to say (page 28) that sooty in all colors has not been proven to be the genetic control of just one gene.

See ... even the guy who apparently inspired the widespread use of the term sooty admits it's just a catch all term for multiple genes that cause various darker shades.

Hmmmm ... maybe I shouldn't be quite so hard on the guy, eh? Well, I still don't think he should have used sooty so broadly if he didn't even think it was truly it's own gene.

To recap, even Sponenberg says that "sooty" is nothing more than a descriptive term he uses to describe anything that's darker than average, and that it is NOT a gene.

I guess we could think of "sooty" as a temporary term/place holder until the real cause is found. Or until a real term can be agreed upon for any particular shade of color.

No need to use sooty in reference to a light brown horse, now that we know what causes them.

Really never has been a need for the use of "sooty" in reference to liver or black chestnuts, since they already have their own, unique descriptive names. No one ever says "Look at my sooty liver chestnut," to my knowledge anyway.

I'm just saying ... I feel that over the past 5 to 10 years the understanding of color genetics by laypersons like ourselves has advanced far, far beyond the use of the more elementary,and in some cases, antiquated, concepts and terminology. So why continue to use and support out-dated terms and concepts? It just holds us all back, IMO.

Nancy Castle
[url=http://www.duncentralstation.com]Dun Central Station[/url]

duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

ACC,

While you didn't ever read any of his books, I suspect that like most folks, we all learned what we know/knew about sooty indirectly from Sponenberg. By this I simply mean that those who told/taught us about sooty learned it from him. Or they learned it from someone who learned it from his books. Know what I mean?

I learned about sooty before I ever read any of his books, but I've no doubt that the folks I learned it from got their info from reading his books.

But it would seem (see my post to Darrell - drcharltonjr) that these people who passed along Sponenberg's info on sooty didn't pass on all of the info. It would seem they neglected to tell us that even he never thought that everything he called sooty was caused by the same thing! THAT is an important detail!!

Again, as I said in the previous post, I still find it a poor practice to lump (suspected) unrelated color modifiers into one single term, as it automatically makes one think they are all controlled by the same gene ... one called "sooty", when in fact the term "sooty" is nothing more than Dr. Sponenberg's personal "junk drawer" for anything that darkens the coat of any color for which he can't come up with an explanation, it would seem.

Nancy Castle
[url=http://www.duncentralstation.com]Dun Central Station[/url]

Cat Hill
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I could not bring myself to read all 18 pages of responses here but wanted to add my experience with Brown. It is real. My SE AK Arabian mare is bay, she tests homozygous bay by the standard agouti tests. She is EE AA. But, her first 2 foals by a coal black, true black tested EEaa Friesian stallion, were both born looking bay then shed the foal coats off and were from then on, very black with the seal brown muzzle. This mare can never have a black foal with 2 agouti genes. She is a true bay color. So, I suspected one of her A's was actually At and had Michal at Pet DNA test her colt and of course he was At, brown. I don't believe there is such a color as black bay. It's the best decription name breeders could come up with at the time but I don't believe they actually exist. Sooty or smutty bay, yes. Black bay no but that's just my opinion too.

I didn't read every post but I did notice a question about the agouti's. My mare has one A and one At and that is how she can produce brown. Bay does not seem to be dominant over bay here as she's only had 3 foals and all 3 are brown. This last foal is also a half Arabian, by my Amber (bay base - EE Aa) Champagne Appaloosa pony stallion. This filly is "Layla Sparkles", my Sable Champagne Half Arabian filly, a brown base color with the champagne gene. I feel very confident in stating that brown is real and that it can be one of the agouti genes and I think that was proven beyond doubt by breeding outcomes as well as scientific testing by Michal, whose business is his own whether he wants to share his discovery with all the big labs or not. Any red based horse can carry it and you would not know it. No black horse can have it. A bay horse with one agouti gene can not have it if the only agouti they have is the bay agouti. A bay horse with homozygous agouti can have 1 bay/1brown or 2 bay agouti's. A brown horse obviously has 1 brown agouti but I can not state with confidence if a brown horse can carry a bay gene as I don't have experience with that.

accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

No, a brown horse can not carry a bay gene or it would be bay. Bay is dominant to brown. A horse who is homozygous agouti could be brown as well... homozygous brown.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Right, when a bay looking horse also has a brown (At) gene, the horse still looks bay. The bay mutation is dominant in visual expression to the brown mutation ... simply meaning that when both are present, the bay mutation has a more complete effect (preventing black from being produced) on the coat than the brown mutation, therefore it is effectively erasing the visual appearance that the brown agouti would have created.

But bay is not dominant to brown in inheritance. When a horse has one of each, each mutation has an equal chance of being passed on to offspring. Even though this particular mare's track record seems to favor her At gene, given enough offspring (like 50 to 100), the numbers would eventually even out.

I made this a month or so ago and put it up on my DCS site. It's not perfect, but might be a bit helpful to anyone who is really new to the whole bay/brown agouti thing. Not referring to Cat Hill, as she clearly has a very good concept of the agouti mutations. Just as a general "for anyone who might find it helpful" is all.

http://www.duncentralstation.com/Videos_..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the link does not work correctly by just clicking on it (due to hot link protection), just copy and paste it into a new browser window.

Nancy Castle
[url=http://www.duncentralstation.com]Dun Central Station[/url]

accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

That's pretty cool Nancy!! Now someone needs to find wild bay!

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duncentralstation
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

That's pretty cool Nancy!! Now someone needs to find wild bay!

Thanks!

You know, speaking of pondering the existence of a gene, I have had occasion to wonder if there really is a separate mutation for wild bay. I'm not saying that I don't believe it exists, mind you. I do have questions, though.

First question ... and it's quite an important one ... is there a strict definition of the phenotype for wild bay?

I have seen people refer to horses as wild bay that have a sort of pale "varnish" of darker coloring at the knee and hock joints, for example. Or rather light leg points. Is wild bay truly just ankle-height points, with no darker point color at all above the fetlock joint?

Below are links to an example of a bay gelding that some might call wild bay. I know it's okay to use his pic/link here because his owner/breeder is a very close friend of mine, and she and I have pondered the wild bay thing, with him being an example of a horse we aren't sure whether or not he could be really called wild bay or not. Bear in mind that he is a 5 yr old in these latest pics, so it's not as if he is a youngster whose points simply have not had time to fully fill yet.

http://www.tamarsventures.com/salepics/B..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.tamarsventures.com/salepics/B..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is your opinion? Wild bay? Or simply a light bay with light points?

Nancy Castle
[url=http://www.duncentralstation.com]Dun Central Station[/url]

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