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Seal bay?

CMhorses March 30, 2009 February 22, 2011

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Well I was reading the other post about seal bays and was wondering about our oldest mare April. She seemed lighter than the seal bay pictures that I had seen but its very possible I'm just crazy and shes just a faded seal and not sooty or something else. She seems rather dappled in her summer coat but I wouldn't even know what that means color wise.

CMhorses Mon, 03/30/2009 - 20:26

What type of bay? I was just wondering because someone said that they didn't think bays could be sooty and I thought she could look it.

accphotography Mon, 03/30/2009 - 20:47

That's seal to me. If she's negative for cream (or proven negative), she's seal IMO. I've seen several mares *identical* to her test 'Ata crcr'. Now the validity of that test is up for debate, sure, but the phenotype is there IMO. Her winter pic says it all to me.

CMhorses Mon, 03/30/2009 - 20:57

So, just plain seal right? no sooty or anything else? And shes never been tested but the only time she ever had a cream foal was when bred to a buckskin stud.
Also I know she is not homozygous bay as she has had chestnut foals too.

thorwood Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:01

She looks normal bay in winter & summer to me.

This is what I call seal.

[attachment=0]DSC_2901.jpg[/attachment]

accphotography Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:05

Not near enough red in that coat to me.

Thorwood are you sure that horse isn't black? If not, then obviously seal. Agouti at it's most minimal for sure.

thorwood Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:21

ACC, to be honest, she hasn't been tested, but I am pretty sure she isn't black.
She has just started to get her winter coat, but here is her flank. You can't see it, but all the area up underneath & in between
her back legs is red & she dapples red here in spring. She also has a red nose.

Also, not trying to be difficult, but that bay horse posted by the OP looks nearly all red to me, with a bit of sooty over the top.
I am seeing something totally different to you I think.
Still it just goes to show how subjective the colour bay is to describe.

[attachment=0]DSC_2898.jpg[/attachment]

CMhorses Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:27

Gosh I was feeling dumb about asking this but now its getting interesting.
Im iffy on whether she is sooty classic or fading seal, but I'm not nearly as familiar with these shades and colors as you guys are.
Also the main reason I said sooty was because it resembles the way our buckskin is sooty, but the more I look at it, the more she just looks faded.
Wish I could find some younger pictures of her, shes in her twenties in those.

accphotography Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:33

Best way to catch her not faded is take a picture the day she drops her winter coat. That should be pretty tell tale. The sooty I could go either way on (although my gut tells me it's not sooty), but the color itself is just to gold to be normal bay to me.

FWIW: This mare tested 'Ata crcr':
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/6…]

CMhorses Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:36

[quote="accphotography"]
FWIW: This mare tested 'Ata crcr':
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/6…]
Oooohhh that is a pretty mare, looks almost the same as April. I should be able to get a picture of her shed out soonish.OT but,the snowy picture reminded me of the ice storm, ACC how did it affect you?

accphotography Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:40

We were without power for 5 days and still have alot of damage (luckily none directly effecting us save for the power outage). For the most part we faired well compared to some.

You see my pics? I still have more to upload someday:
http://www.accphotography.com/gallery/p…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sara Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:40

See, this [i]is[/i] interesting because we don't all agree on these things. I do think that bays can be sooty (still have to dig up those pics of Lindsey) and the first mare in this thread is what I would call a dark bay. I have two of those, currently, and it's my very favorite color. I had another mare who looked exactly like the mare Thorwood posted and I agree, that's what I call seal.

CMhorses Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:45

Ouch ACC, we were without power for 12? days. Had to let 22 horses (all except stallions) out loose on the farm due to not being able to move hay because our hay spike broke.Also we were trapped out here for around 5 days, the road was completely blocked.In fact the only reason they cleared the road to even be able to get out was because some man had cancer and couldn't get supplies.
Anyway, this topic is still getting interesting. I like seeing different peoples opinions.

accphotography Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:46

Yikes. I'd have been miserable. Guess there's a reason I live in town.

I think genetically seal is just the extreme version of what some of you call dark bay. Man I can't wait for Michal to finish.

CMhorses Mon, 03/30/2009 - 22:51

[quote="accphotography"]Yikes. I'd have been miserable. Guess there's a reason I live in town.

I think genetically seal is just the extreme version of what some of you call dark bay. Man I can't wait for Michal to finish.[/quote]
I can't imagine living anywhere other than here on the farm,can't stand cities.
And they are doing tests to find different variations or something?

Fledgesflight Tue, 03/31/2009 - 00:48

I see Seal for Thorwood's example and Faded Bay for the OP.

accphotography Tue, 03/31/2009 - 00:49

What if she looks much closer to Thorwood's example when she's not "faded"?

Fledgesflight Tue, 03/31/2009 - 00:55

True, True - I would like to see a foal photo.

Maigray Tue, 03/31/2009 - 13:57

Essentially, a brown is what we say it is. We make the call based on visual assessment. In short, if it looks brown, then it's brown.

This, of course, means it's based on opinion, and that means it's subjective.

So here is the conflict - brown is believed to be something different from regular bay because it [u]looks[/u] different. Historically, people have seen that and developed different terms to define it.

But if I cannot distinquish between a brown phenotype and dark bay phenotype, then the foundation of my reasoning, that brown is a different genotype becuase it has a different phenotype, goes out the window.

The genetic test can break that stalemate. But if it turns out that brown and dark bays aren't distinquishable by phenotype, then my belief that brown was seperate was all along a fallacy, since clearly I was never reliably distinguishing between them in the first place.

Awfully twisted, isn't it?

accphotography Tue, 03/31/2009 - 15:23

Therein lies the trouble of similar phenotypes and unknown genotypes. *nods*

CMhorses Tue, 03/31/2009 - 16:11

[quote="Fledgesflight"]True, True - I would like to see a foal photo.[/quote]
If you are talking about my mare then I can't get a foal photo as we did not own her until she was two or three. Best I can get is some old photos and scan them, but I don't think I can even find any older than 1998.

vvpaints Sun, 04/19/2009 - 11:25

[attachment=2]diesel.jpg[/attachment]
I dont know what color you would say this guy is. We bred our mare to him she is papered brown tests EeAa...he is homozygous for black EE...but I dont know his agouti status...the filly is this color now before shedding foal coat:[attachment=1]MaggieMay5daysold.jpg[/attachment]
And the dam is this color:[attachment=0]Emma_Maggie.jpg[/attachment] Anyways the foal, Maggie tested EeAA....

CMhorses Tue, 04/21/2009 - 22:20

I think ACC said to take a picture of her the day she lost her winter coat. Well this was taken this week and she isn't as dark as she was in her winter coat. For a comparison, theres a photo of her from a few weeks earlier.

accphotography Tue, 04/21/2009 - 22:33

Classic expression of brown or smokey brown imo. She's still not shed out yet though.

CMhorses Tue, 04/21/2009 - 23:08

She is nearly shed, the bottom picture was the one from this week.

Monsterpony Wed, 04/22/2009 - 01:07

Looks sunbleached black to me. The area around his muzzle doesn't show any hint of red like you'd expect on a seal.

PamelaTX Wed, 04/22/2009 - 01:20

[quote="Monsterpony"]Looks sunbleached black to me. The area around his muzzle doesn't show any hint of red like you'd expect on a seal.[/quote]

[color=#8000BF][b]Hmmmm...interesting...he's always looked brown to me.
Ok...here's foal pics all the way to current.
Brown...Seal...Black???[/b][/color]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[color=#8000BF][b]Weanling[/b][/color]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[color=#8000BF][b]Short yearling[/b][/color]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[color=#8000BF][b]Around 1 1/2 yrs[/b][/color]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[color=#8000BF][b]The were taken in Feb of this year before he left Iowa for Arkansas[/b][/color]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…]
[color=#8000BF][b]His papers (he's a gelding)[/b][/color]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;