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Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

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accphotography
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Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...
So Lacy has the sarcoid in her ear. We were going to leave it alone if it stayed the same, but it's getting bigger and bigger. I've been warned that these things can come back with a vengeance if not handled properly. My vet wants to tie a suture around it and keep tightening it every few days until the lack of blood supply kills it and it drops off. Is this a good method? What are the other methods? Which seems the most successful? How long do they take? I was hoping to show her soon, but this thing is way too obnoxious to enter a ring with so I'd like it to be something that works quick but I'm very worried about it coming back. She's also got a new one forming inside the tissue of the ear pinna instead of on it so now it looks like she has a big bump changing the outline shape of her ear. :BH :BH :BH Don't think that one can be removed without taking the pinna. Luckily it is only small right now. Let's hope it stays that way. So... thoughts?
Sara
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

I've never had a horse with a sarcoid so I can't offer any real life experience, but I just googled it and didn't see any references to the method you mention. There are anti-cancer creams that can be effective, apparently. I also found freezing mentioned. I hope you guys come up with something that works!

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Sara
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

This article seems pretty extensive and mentions the ligation method among many others. http://www.arabianlines.com/horse_health..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Sorry I accidentally put this thread in the wrong place. I meant to put it in General and my stupid eyes messed up and had me put it in Genetics. :laugh1 I forgot their was a veterinary so I've moved it over here.

I'm reading that article Sara, thanks.

So far I'm seeing ALOT of mention of Xxterra. I wonder if my vet would be willing to get it for me. The only method she knew about the first time I asked (in the fall, when we determined to leave it unless it grew) was ligation so I'm not sure how she'll feel about researching other possibilities.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Monsterpony
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Here is how my professor put it: When you see a condition with a lot of different commonly used treatment options, it generally means that none of them work that well. That is unfortunately the case with sarcoids. What might work well in some horses may lead to huge problems in others. For example, I used Xterra for two different horses and had absolutely perfect results. The third horse I treated with it is still struggling as rather than the sarcoid dying with the chemo treatment, it became ulcerative and worsened. This horse has since been through multiple rounds of cryotherapy, Xterra and surgical debridement without any improvement. It is really hard to say to do one or another treatment as it is very much a case by case basis.

.

lipigirl
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

A friend on mine had a OTTB mare with them on her face and her tummy was the worst, she got a homopathic remedy - now I don't believe in these - but they dropped off after a couple of months of treatment. All she had to do was put a couple of drops of this homopathic stuff on an apple - it was that easy and amazing results, I will try and find out more for you if you like.

Sarcoids are suppposed to be hereditory BTW.

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Really? I hadn't heard the hereditary thing. Terrific.

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accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Well apparently my vet has learned about Xxterra since her and I talked last. She didn't mention it the first time I talked to her about it, only the ligation. After doing my homework I wanted to mention it to her. I printed out all the information on it I could find. When she got there today she spent a little time looking at it and announced "She needs to go on Xxterra." :rofl So all my printing for nothing. :laugh1 I asked her if of all the options she felt that was the best for her particular case and she said she is confident it will work. She suspects it will take months, but I've heard many reports of it coming off in just a month or so. We shall see. I am excited!!

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Sara
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Keep us posted! And I think a photo journal is in order here!

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accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Yes, definitely. I've never taken a photo specifically of it so any photos from today and earlier will have to be cropped from larger shots. I'll start taking photos when I start the medication (anticipating tomorrow morning). She's on day stall rest for a few days with an eye injury so she'll be in during the day and out at night. It was raining tonight when I turned her out so I didn't want to chance the meds being wasted. I'll put it on every morning when I bring her in (well, it's only 4 days of meds... 4 on, 20 off, repeat).

Here's a pic from last week I think:

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace/Sarcoid.jpg)

Here's a really cruddy pic from August last year for comparison:
IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace/SarcoidAugust.jpg)

I'll have to look back and see when I think it started. I think early last summer.

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raknrydr
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

My mare had one that looked similar on her udder right in front of one of her teats,When I bred her I was worried about the foal nursing and hitting it all the time.

So 2 vets looked at it and said it was a sarcoid and gave me all kinds of info on what could or could not be done, then they were to consult with others and get back to me, and didn't.

So in the mean time I decided the heck with it I was going to try the Warts Off cream you can get out of a magazine and started putting it on just the wart itself making sure not to get it on the surrounding skin did it daily for about a week I think then let it rest a week then on again, it completely dried up and fell off.

So when my vets came back out for something else I told them to check her sarcoid and they were dumbfounded it was gone, I told them what I did and they said well I guess it was not a sarcoid and just a plain oh wart, who knows. But she does have a few of the nodular sub-q ones I'm watching to.

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Well she has now had her 4 days on the medicine and goes 20 days off now. She is FURIOUS with us and her ear. Apparently it has made it INCREDIBLY painful, to the point we have to twitch her to even get a fly mask on (that doesn't even touch her ear) much less to apply the medicine. She was not like this at all before so I blame it all on the medicine. I'm okay with that though because at least we know it's doing something.

What's really strange is what the sarcoid looks like after just 4 days. It's DISGUSTING. There's several places where open tissue is visible... almost looks like fat (a blobby, yellow appearance, but feels firm). It's bled, ALOT. Several pieces of it have fallen off and it seems to have shrunk. What's freaking us out is the number of places that are looking bare and sickly that we didn't even know had sarcoids (normal appearing parts of her ear now seem effected and angry). The medicine does NOT harm normal flesh, so everywhere we're seeing a reaction there was apparently some sarcoid tissue we couldn't see (sub-cu maybe). It's disgusting and clearly very painful. I'm going to give her a couple days off now and hope maybe the pain relents some or at least maybe she can get her mind off of it, but I doubt it.

I'm sorry, I don't have a picture as of now. Quite frankly, the vet left me with the very strong impression it would be MONTHS before I saw any response. She also told me it would just shrink, not fall of in pieces, or bleed, or get angry. I really don't know if this is a normal reaction or not. I may call my vet and ask her if she's seen one react this way before or not and if she thinks it's a problem.

MP: You suggested Xxterra. How much do you know about it? Have you experienced what I'm describing?

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

vneerland
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

:shock: Read MP's post again, about the 3rd horse. You are sure it is not getting worse, instead of better? :o :?

Monsterpony
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

ACC- this reaction sounds exactly like every time I've used XXterra. By the third or fourth day, I definitely see an inflamed, oozing wound. The sarcoid pieces generally fall off by the end of the week. I am not sure about it not affecting normal tissue though so I'll have to look into it more to see about that. Cookie (the third horse I mentioned) became violent about me treating it within a few days, but he also had a very invasive sarcoid (the vet thought it went into the muscle bed underneath).

Raknrydr- Sarcoids are caused by bovine papilloma (wart) virus so that treatment could make sense, but sarcoids also regularly regress on their own as well.

.

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Here's a really cruddy phone photo:

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace/IMG00467.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Well it was on the Xxterra label itself that said that about not effecting normal tissue, so I'd assume it's right unless they are trying to sell their product.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Monsterpony
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

I have the progression of one of Cookie's treatments in daily photographs that I will dig out as soon as I set-up my external harddrive.

.

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

That would be awesome!! We were a bit concerned when it started doing this since the vet implied we wouldn't notice *any* difference for a long time. :laugh1 I may have her out just so she can see what she should warn people about. :laugh1

I wish we had done this sooner. I feel so bad for her. She's getting her pictures taken (by someone else) later this month too... I'm not sure how that's gonna work out. *sigh*

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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

YIKES! Now that is gross. Wasn't expecting that.... good luck with treating it ACC. :? :)

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

I'd have gotten a pic today, but it was pouring.

I can't get a halter on or off... even if I try with it suuuuuper loose. I don't know what the heck I'm going to do.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

:sad

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accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

MP: Quick question. I noticed she has two VERY large veins running down the side of her neck (same side as the bad ear) today. They didn't seem to bother her and I didn't feel any major pulse in them, but they feel a bit firm to me. Is this something that normally happens with Xxterra in an ear or do you have any ideas what might be causing it?

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Monsterpony
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Veins? Where in the neck? On a different note, do you have her on any pain meds? If she is that painful about her ear, some sort of pain relief would be in order.

.

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Which pain med would be best? Bute? I have some banamine paste on hand.

Two veins (or arteries I suppose). Just narrow, small veins (but protruding and firm) running from approximately the ear down almost to her shoulder. I'm not certain of the EXACT position, but I think they're about here:

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace/Lace.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Monsterpony
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

There isn't anything that I can think that runs from ear to shoulder in that way so I am at a loss as to what you are seeing. The veins and arteries that supply the ear all run down into the throatlatch and down the jugular groove. Maybe it is inflamed superficial lymphatic ducts? I would call your vet and ask about what pain med she would recommend and ask her if she has any ideas about the vessels.

.

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

WOW! Then I will DEFINITELY get a photo for you tomorrow. They look VERY much like veins, though I'll admit they are firm and I could feel no pulse. Hmmmm.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Monsterpony
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Well, you wouldn't feel a pulse in a vein, but you would be able to depress a normal vessel rather than it feeling firm.

.

Monsterpony
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Cookie's Sarcoids- he had a superficial verrucous and occult, but it is likely malevolent as it goes deep into the tissue underneath. I treated the two superficial parts with XXterra. The sarcoids are located in his left armpit so some of the pictures are kind of hard to orient.

Day 1 (before treatment):
The bigger verrucous (lumpy) one is towards his neck.
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid1.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid2.jpg)
Coated with XXterra on day 1
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid3.jpg)

Day 2

IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid4.jpg)

Day 3/4- sarcoid starts to seperate
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid5.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid6.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid7.jpg)

Day 5- more pus and blood oozing from the wound
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid8.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid9.jpg)

Day 6- pieces start to slough off the verrucous sarcoid
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid10.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid11.jpg)

Day 7- the smaller, occult sarcoid started to ooze and bleed
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid12.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid13.jpg)

Day 8- the occult sarcoid sloughed
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid14.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid15.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid16.jpg)

These are after a few more days. The verrucous one came off in little pieces over the next few days. You can see that the two sarcoids seem to get closer together. It is actually that as the pieces sloughed off, it revealed the larger, connected tumor underneath.
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid17.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid18.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid19.jpg)

This is awhile after the treatment showing that the wound did not heal well.
IMAGE(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/monsterpony/Sarcoid/sarcoid20.jpg)

.

lipigirl
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Wow Amazing pictures !! ACC I would have a word with the vet, if they are inflamed or infected lymph nodes you should be careful ! IMO.

accphotography
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Here ya go:

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace/IMG_4384.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace/IMG_4395.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace/IMG_4396.jpg)

Don't even ask how I handled the haltering situation. :rofl

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TwinCreeksFarm
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Re: Sarcoid help please... ASAP, vet coming tomorrow...

Yuck, yuck, yuck. Cool macro shot though :rofl I really do wish you luck, again!

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