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sabino? silver?

Since you were all lots of help with my bucky boy i thought i'd ask about a mini i have. I am currently sell her and describing her as what i was told she was......sabino taffy.....which is silver? :? she has one blue eye is this correct or is she something else? Here are some photos: [img]http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/boonooloo_hills/IMG_4172.jpg[/img] [img]http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/boonooloo_hills/IMG_4152.jpg[/img] Thanks :-D

Ammit Tue, 06/22/2010 - 07:54

If she has a blue eye she has splash. I think she is probably a very minimal splash white, and probably silver on black since her coat is more gray then red. Very cute pony.

lipigirl Tue, 06/22/2010 - 08:36

Agreed the blue eye is splash although if I were going to breed from her I would still test her for LWO frame too. I also think it is black silver - cute too !

Danni Tue, 06/22/2010 - 20:15

Yep Black Silver. If you are in Aust, most people I know call silvers, taffies.

They probably meant the blaze to be sabino? Which it could be but, as others have said, Splash most probably has a good influence there, and always test for LWO!

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 00:33

I wouldn't worry about LWS with her. And the whole splash topic could be debatable, without photos of the parents I wouldn't go as far to say splash. While it's true that blue eyes are a sign of splash, blue eyes are also caused by white facial markings. Seeing how close that blaze is to her eye, that could very well be the cause, specially since she has one blue eye. Splash horses tend to have two blue eyes, even in minimal expression.

Monsterpony Fri, 06/25/2010 - 00:57

[quote="JNFerrigno"]I wouldn't worry about LWS with her. And the whole splash topic could be debatable, without photos of the parents I wouldn't go as far to say splash. While it's true that blue eyes are a sign of splash, blue eyes are also caused by white facial markings. Seeing how close that blaze is to her eye, that could very well be the cause, specially since she has one blue eye. Splash horses tend to have two blue eyes, even in minimal expression.[/quote]

White facial markings have to be caused by some gene be it sabino, dominant white, frame or splash. Sabino rings the eyes in solid color while splash likes to make the eyes blue. Frame is also linked to blue eyes.

accphotography Fri, 06/25/2010 - 00:58

[quote="JNFerrigno"]I wouldn't worry about LWS with her. And the whole splash topic could be debatable, without photos of the parents I wouldn't go as far to say splash. While it's true that blue eyes are a sign of splash, blue eyes are also caused by white facial markings. Seeing how close that blaze is to her eye, that could very well be the cause, specially since she has one blue eye. Splash horses tend to have two blue eyes, even in minimal expression.[/quote]

One should ALWAYS worry about LWS if considering breeding to an LWS stallion. ESPECIALLY horses with blue eyes.

Splash has proven to be as minimal as only blue eyes and no markings in some cases. There are also a large number of noticeable splashes without blue eyes or with only one. The shape and movement of this marking very much indicates splash.

You will likely find the majority of this community does not subscribe to the theory that random white markings exist, that those markings or sabino markings cause blue eyes or that simply the mechanism of white touching the eye can cause it to be blue.

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 01:18

[quote="accphotography"]One should ALWAYS worry about LWS if considering breeding to an LWS stallion. ESPECIALLY horses with blue eyes.

Splash has proven to be as minimal as only blue eyes and no markings in some cases. There are also a large number of noticeable splashes without blue eyes or with only one. The shape and movement of this marking very much indicates splash.

You will likely find the majority of this community does not subscribe to the theory that random white markings exist, that those markings or sabino markings cause blue eyes or that simply the mechanism of white touching the eye can cause it to be blue.[/quote]

If breeding to a carrier, then you may consider testing the horse. Sorry if I missed where it was mentioned this mare was a breeding prospect. I still don't think that it would be necessary in her case given her minimal markings, even minimal frame horses have tested negative for OLWS. But better save then sorry. As to what causes white markings on a horses face, it's still up for debate. While it may not be random, I don't know of anything that has been proven. For every example of dark eyed bald faced horses out there, there is another one with blue. While I'm not saying that a horse will always have blue eyes if it has a blaze, I don't think that blue eyes as a result of white markings should be discredited. And that could be supported by looking at the occurrence of blue eyes in other horse or animals with white patterns. Do I think the horse is sabino, yes. Which one - who knows. Sabino is becoming another umbrella term like Overo. But without images of her parents, I wouldn't say she is splashed white.

accphotography Fri, 06/25/2010 - 01:27

[quote="JNFerrigno"]I still don't think that it would be necessary in her case given her minimal markings, even minimal frame horses have tested negative for OLWS.[/quote]

They weren't minimal frame is they tested negative for OLWS. Frame = LWO. LWO = Frame. Those horses were likely sabino, dominant white or splash (or some combination).

This horse has tested positive for LWO and has no more what than you see:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote="JNFerrigno"]Sabino is becoming another umbrella term like Overo.[/quote]

Hence our very own "sabino scapegoat":

:sabino

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 01:37

XD hahah! I was wondering what that was! Love it.

And I appoligize, the last time I did any research on LWS was in 2003 as a state science project for high school. I think at that time the APHA and just started making it a rule that advertised stallions had to list if they were carriers or not (or maybe I'm getting that confused with Hypp). Also many breeders were secretive about their horses, so finding people that were willing to work with me was difficult. I don't think at the time of my research, anyone would have considered testing a solid horse like that, so that is really something new and interesting. And this stallion, if I could even find him again, was clearly overo, whether it was frame I don't know as that term confuses me as well. I don't think he was sabino or splash however.

So if frame is linked with LWS, how is it that solid foal popped on the test? Also if I may ask, what would your source be so that if I need to do any future updates to articles, I know it would be credible? You may contact me at JNFerrigno@gmail.com because if you work in the field I'd love to pick at your brains ^_~

RiddleMeThis Fri, 06/25/2010 - 01:41

[quote="JNFerrigno"]So if frame is linked with LWS, how is it that solid foal popped on the test? [/quote] Because a horse doesnt need ANY white to be Frame. [quote]Also if I may ask, what would your source be so that if I need to do any future updates to articles, I know it would be credible?[/quote]
UC Davis would be that source along with the LWO paper.

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 02:05

Will you please provide the link to the article you're revering to, there are many out there that are repetitive. UC Davis and James Mickelson were two of my core sources, however I don't have anything after 2004.

Monsterpony Fri, 06/25/2010 - 02:13

30. Santschi EM, Vrotsos PD, Purdy AK, Mickelson JR. Incidence of the endothelin receptor B mutation that causes lethal white foal syndrome in white-patterned horses. AJVR. 62(1):January 2001.
31. Mau C, Poncet PA, Bucher B, Stranzinger G, Rieder S. Genetic mapping of dominant white (W), a homozygous lethal condition in the horse (Equus caballus). J. Anim. Breed. Genet. 2004;121:374-383.
32. Finno C, Spier S, Valberg S. Equine diseases caused by known genetic mutations. The Veterinary Journal. 2009;179(3):336-347.
33. Magdesian KG, Williams DC, Aleman M, LeCouteur RA, Madigan JE. Evaluation of deafness in American Paint Horses by phenotype, brainstem auditory-evoked responses, and endothelin receptor B genotype. JAVMA. 235(10).
34. Metallinos DL, Bowling AT, Rine J. A missense mutation in the endothelin-B receptor gene is associated with lethal white foal syndrome: an equine version of Hirschsprung disease. Mammalian Genome. 1998;9(6):426-431.
35. Vrotsos PD, Santschi EM, Mickelson JR. The Impact of the Mutation Causing Overo Lethal White Syndrome on White Patterning in Horses. AAEP Proceedings. 2001;47:385-391.
36. McCabe L, Griffin LD, Kinzer A, et al. Overo Lethal White Foal Syndrome- Equine Model of Anganglionic Megacolon (Hirschsprung disease). American Journal of Medical

I am on my mom's computer so I just copied the ones I remembered straight out of my senior thesis.

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 02:23

Yeah I think I have all those, and I think they just repeat the same information. However Evaluation of deafness in American Paint Horses by phenotype, brainstem auditory-evoked responses, and endothelin receptor B genotype, would be an interesting read and I wonder if there is a connection between deafness in splashed whites that are seen in some family lines. I'm looking for something that would show solid horses being carriers for LWS. While white patterns can all be minimal, I'm having a hard time understanding that you can have these horses pop positive on tests.

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 02:46

I'm going through their website now. I just wondered if any research had been done on a group of horses in the last few years. Because when previous research was done, it was all on patterned animals, and solid animals were used as the control because they were considered negative for carriers.

Years ago the project I was working on was designing a hypothetical breeding program where breeders could still get color in their horses but drastically lower the occurrence of LWS. Basically it was all a theory, and I compiled the results of tested stallions and mares that I could find, and have approval to use. I don't remember the entire list, and since we had a fire only parts of my research remain. But I know I found 1 tobiano stallion who popped positive, now if he had anything else I don't know, possible masked by the white of his tobiano pattern. All the other horses that I found online and locally who were tested, were loud overos. I don't think any of them were tested for SB1 (not sure if there was a test back then for it). Ah but any way, I ramble, sorry.

Back then, minimally marked and even solid horses were not being tested, because at that time there never seemed to be a need to as it was thought LWS was connected to loud marked overos. So I find it really interesting that, even in exploring the Strebor Minis site, there are minimal and solid horses popping for LWS. The fact that a breeder posts it on their website is proof enough for me. I didn't mean to appear like a demanding wench or anything. But when it comes to color genetics, at least for me, I feel it important to site the sources. No offense to any of you, but by jsut posting a photo of a solid horse and saying they tested positive for something, who knows, it could just be a random horse online. And then that's how we have incorrect information spread in the color community.

RiddleMeThis Fri, 06/25/2010 - 02:57

This entire forum does their best to be completely accurate. Not one person on this board would post a horse and say it was definitely something when theres a possibility that its not. And they especially would NOT say something was tested if they didn't know it was tested, or if it wasn't tested.

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 05:39

Yeah I've been finding more now that you guys have showed me something new. This is really interesting, because like I said back when I was doing research on it, no breeder would have thought to test their solid horses.

Dogrose Fri, 06/25/2010 - 06:20

You have to see things here in terms of genotype rather than phenotype.
Go read up some threads on dominant white markings v sabino markings, that will fry your brain :-D

rabbitsfizz Fri, 06/25/2010 - 07:15

OLWS is not [i]linked[/i] to Frame, it [i]is[/i] Frame.
"Overo" as a term is obsolete as it merely means "anything that is not Tobiano".
JN it might behoove you to actually do some up to date research before you come on this Forum and start questioning everyone.
We have reached the point here where we know each others strengths and weaknesses, and offering such downright dangerous advice as it is not worthwhile testing an animal based on it's visual phenotype really is....well, dangerous!!
I hope you stick around and learn what is new, but, in the meantime, I suggest strongly that you read the stuff MP has given you.

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 07:51

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]OLWS is not [i]linked[/i] to Frame, it [i]is[/i] Frame.
"Overo" as a term is obsolete as it merely means "anything that is not Tobiano".
JN it might behoove you to actually do some up to date research before you come on this Forum and start questioning everyone.
We have reached the point here where we know each others strengths and weaknesses, and offering such downright dangerous advice as it is not worthwhile testing an animal based on it's visual phenotype really is....well, dangerous!!
I hope you stick around and learn what is new, but, in the meantime, I suggest strongly that you read the stuff MP has given you.[/quote]
Thank you. I did apologize for speaking incorrectly, as stated above when I first started this research, shortly after Mickelson's team mates isolated the cause and made a test for it, this was a disease that afflicted white patterned horses, and white patterned animals. Pigs, Rabbits, Dogs...it was all white patterned. Breeders didn't have cause for concern to have their solid horses tested, because they were solid, and at the time, it wasn't common knowledge that frame could still be there and not expressed physically. As breeders we were taught to believe the 1:2:1 ratio when it came to carrier x carrier breeding. But now I stand corrected, and I'm good with that.

As for the questioning of the sources, I was polite and professional about it. It seems only reasonable to provide a source when you are trying to bring proof to light. I think everyone here should be able to agree with that. But thank you anyway rabbitsfizz.

Songcatcher Fri, 06/25/2010 - 08:06

I think this thread has got WAY off the original topic, but the way I look at it, a LOUD Frame pattern is the most desirable expression of the LWO gene, but not all LWOs produce that visual pattern.

This is my LWO positive Miniature stallion, McSperitts Rowdy Night Image. He inherited the LWO from his similarly marked sire (with wider blaze), Night Rider, who inherited it from his very famous sire, Rowdy (who was thought for many years to be solid).

[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…] [img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

Here is one of a son of his, also lab tested LWO positive, Songcatchers Walking After Midnight (almost identical markings to his LWO positive grandsire, Night Rider):

[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

And a very loud marked son of his out of a minimally marked Sabino mare:

[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 08:09

Beautiful stallion. What color are the eyes of McSperitts Rowdy Night Image? I don't know if it's the light, but they have a nice color to them.

rabbitsfizz Fri, 06/25/2010 - 08:10

Just going to prove that there is no rhyme or reason to phenotype versus genotype!!

JN, I apologise for coming on so strong, I have been up for three weeks with a mare foaling, only to lose her colt this am......bugger doesn't quite cover it, somehow, but this is not [i]your[/i] fault!!

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 08:13

rabbitsfizz, it's alright. I've been there on the nightly foal watch right with ya. Tho I'm sorry to hear that you lost the foal. I hope the mare is alright. I'm sure this is a needed distraction for you right now.