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Roan Expression

So going through old old photos, and learning there are different expressions of 'roaning' I wondered what would be your take as to why roan can be very loud, or minimal. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/Dixie%20Stampede/Budd…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/Dixie%20Stampede/Bail…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Is this what they are seeing in the hancock horses?)

Monsterpony Tue, 06/29/2010 - 19:28

I was pondering white pattern expression the last couple days. It got me thinking about how we have such a specific criteria for the varying levels of appy pattern, yet all the other white patterns tend to be either they have it or they don't. Tobi can be just that little wither spot and leg white or a full blown tobi, but both are just called tobiano. Or roan can be very white or hard to see. Not really an answer to your question, just what I have been contemplating.

JNFerrigno Tue, 06/29/2010 - 19:49

Neither are hancock, that I know of. They were horses that worked at a dinner theater and I don't think they have a known pedigree just in the way they are bought and sold and traded all over the place.

DunDreamin Tue, 06/29/2010 - 19:51

I think Hancock horses are known, commonly as roans.. but we also have one sorrel and one black f2nd or 3rd gen. hancock.

(Sorry, trying to decipher your comment with the pics lol) And learning at the same time.

TheRedHayflinger Tue, 06/29/2010 - 19:54

my neighbors (and boyfriends cousin's)classic roan stallion--Sunfrost Bronsin:
http://vangundystables.tripod.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ACC has a pic of his sire who is minimal expressed true roan too--PC Bronsin

another horse that comes to mind is Yellow Roan Of Texas
http://www.oasisranchinc.com/yellow_roa…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.horse-genetics.com/Yellow-Ro…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JNFerrigno Tue, 06/29/2010 - 20:03

[quote="DunDreamin"]I think Hancock horses are known, commonly as roans.. but we also have one sorrel and one black f2nd or 3rd gen. hancock.

(Sorry, trying to decipher your comment with the pics lol) And learning at the same time.[/quote]
Sorry I should explain. In Sponenberg's book, he proposes a few different types of white ticking/roaning. Wish I had the book right now, but I put it some where and can't find it. I think he classes them by levels of expression and where the white hairs fall on the body. There was the classic roan, which we associate with roan, then there was frosty which is I believe the other proposed type of roan that Hancock Horses are believed to have.

Danni Tue, 06/29/2010 - 20:19

[quote="JNFerrigno"]In Sponenberg's book, he proposes a few different types of white ticking/roaning. Wish I had the book right now, but I put it some where and can't find it. I think he classes them by levels of expression and where the white hairs fall on the body. There was the classic roan, which we associate with roan, then there was frosty which is I believe the other proposed type of roan that Hancock Horses are believed to have.[/quote]

That second link you put up still looks roan? It's got the slightly darker 'scars' or whatever they call those marks. It's an interesting look though as it's very minimal but still all over. Other more minimal roans I have seen have the roan just over the croup?

Do the Hancock roans test as roans? Sponenbergs books drive me nuts, I can't read them as he uses localised names for colours instead of genetic names. If you are in a breed or region that uses different names it is especially irritating. :smile:

DunDreamin Tue, 06/29/2010 - 20:48

[quote="JNFerrigno"][quote="DunDreamin"]I think Hancock horses are known, commonly as roans.. but we also have one sorrel and one black f2nd or 3rd gen. hancock.

(Sorry, trying to decipher your comment with the pics lol) And learning at the same time.[/quote]
Sorry I should explain. In Sponenberg's book, he proposes a few different types of white ticking/roaning. Wish I had the book right now, but I put it some where and can't find it. I think he classes them by levels of expression and where the white hairs fall on the body. There was the classic roan, which we associate with roan, then there was frosty which is I believe the other proposed type of roan that Hancock Horses are believed to have.[/quote]

Ok, so going by the placement of white hair.. what would you say about Tas Blue Hustler? She has a VERY odd hind sock with black specs (if that's relevant at all)..

She is VERY blue (as seen in the other pic) but she's faded :sad She's been the "lawn horse" right now since the mower broke ymwhisle

Sorry.. bad pics.. couldn't get her to stand still right then.. her kid was in the pool (human kid.. will share if interested lol)

[img]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-…]

[img]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-…]

[img]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-…]

JNFerrigno Tue, 06/29/2010 - 20:51

Yeah I ended up with more questions in this last book then I had before. And I think he calls that form of roaning pattern something different (the minimal that is just over the points of the body, like hip and shoulder) I think he called that Roaned, and used it as an adjective instead of the gene for Roan. And from what I understood the roan hancocks test as something different. But isn't the roan test like the dun test? Where it's done by parentage and pedigree verification?

Danni Tue, 06/29/2010 - 21:32

There is a test though for something that travels with Roan? But yeh if it was a different line of roans they may not have that marker the other roans have, but still be true roan?!

accphotography Tue, 06/29/2010 - 21:42

They all test out the same except for Brabants (they apparently have a separate mutation of roan) as far as I know. I think it's just expression variance and whatever limits (or boosts) the expression can be passed on.

JNFerrigno Tue, 06/29/2010 - 22:26

I'd have to have ask, because last I talked with a some one in person a year ago (Leah Patton) she said the hancock horses were testing for something different. And I didn't even know of the brabants. And Dundreamin I'd call that roan. The white speckled leg, I don't know what to think of, I've seen in in sabino before, so maybe it's got something to do with the kit locus? Don't know, I'm as new as you are to this group so I'm still being corrected on what I thought I knew LOL.

accphotography Tue, 06/29/2010 - 23:32

I'm 98% sure what she meant is that they were testing separate from Brabants. That they were showing NOT to be HZ lethal (like the Brabants are), etc. When they started testing roans they were only using Quarter Horses (primarily the Hancock lines) and now they've expanded it to virtually all breeds so clearly they have pinpointed the singular roan gene markers.

DunDreamin Wed, 06/30/2010 - 06:19

[quote="JNFerrigno"]I'd have to have ask, because last I talked with a some one in person a year ago (Leah Patton) she said the hancock horses were testing for something different. And I didn't even know of the brabants. And Dundreamin I'd call that roan. The white speckled leg, I don't know what to think of, I've seen in in sabino before, so maybe it's got something to do with the kit locus? Don't know, I'm as new as you are to this group so I'm still being corrected on what I thought I knew LOL.[/quote]

Wow.. my brain is falling out of my head between this and the bider thread lmao!

I need to find that book. So roan=classic roan according to, to the best of your memory, the book/white hairs?

And now I'm off to check out "kit locus"

lol

I breed for bloodlines and performance.. happen to hope for color, which we get.. and now I have to go back to school apparently! lol

TheRedHayflinger Wed, 06/30/2010 - 06:51

we had a roan TWH at college...summer he looked closer to true roan, but the other three seasons he didn't look so much like one...I only have one pic of him on this computer, I have another taken the same day in the barn though, but it's at home. This was during our Campus Park Patrol class...we had to do a parade and my dad so kindly grabbed my digital camera and snapped pics for me..lol. He is the dark one on the left. The one on the right is also a TWH named Bubba with our teacher up on him.

JNFerrigno Wed, 06/30/2010 - 14:37

Winter coats screw up everything LOL. You think your palomino is going to have a lighter coat, thats typical of palominos, but the darn thing looks like a light chestnut once the coat grows in. A friend of mine on another forum has a chestnut paso mare, and sent me some photos last year of her in her winter coat. The mare ended up looking like a strange cross between bay and dun, but not expressing either one completely.

Monsterpony Wed, 06/30/2010 - 15:43

One of my ponies got his name because of the seasonal changes of roan. He is called Black Magic because he would turned completely solid (to the untrained eye) every fall and then suddenly turn white during the spring shed when roans will shed their dark hair first.

dakotakdq Wed, 06/30/2010 - 17:55

so to ask a dumb question, can we get minimals roans that throw classic roan foals???

Monsterpony Wed, 06/30/2010 - 18:21

Yes. There is at least one stud (I think ACC posted him) that you wouldn't know he was a roan except that he has true roan foals.

JNFerrigno Wed, 06/30/2010 - 18:42

I don't see why not. I think roan is probably like other patterns where it comes in all kinds of levels of expression. I've seen really loud roans out of minimal roans. The next question would be how many types of roan would there be?

accphotography Wed, 06/30/2010 - 22:28

Yup that was me. It was the horse TRF knows, PC Bronsin. He and his sire both BARELY look roan but they both throw totally normal roan foals sometimes.

TheRedHayflinger Thu, 07/01/2010 - 08:54

yep...that one I posted on my first post here--the buckskin. I pass one of his no doubt about it classic true roan foals every day when driving to my boyfriends place. And on Sunfrost Bronsin, even seeing him in person you are looking hard for his roan hairs.

Morgan Sat, 07/03/2010 - 18:31

[quote="Monsterpony"]then suddenly turn white during the spring shed when roans will shed their dark hair first.[/quote]
ehh that's funny, all my paints shed the white first, I wonder what controls that...
I agree with the winter coats making everything go weird. The worst I've had I think was the flea bitten grey, beautiful silver with brown speckles and white mane in summer and then he'd just go mucky drab grey. Come to think of it, he shed the white first too. :-|
The sooty buckskin had banded hairs so she was dark in the summer and then in the winter the hairs would grow long and she looked like a chinchilla. :lol:

dakotakdq Sat, 07/03/2010 - 18:45

theres a chestnut QH here who is very very minimal! looks like a chestnut with a bit of tickling, that throws true roan foals.