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Red to black?

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missmagus
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Red to black?
I know that red mares can produce black foals. I'm not sure why though, but obviously the mare must not carry the agouti - and I've read, on this forum, that red mares can carry the agouti without expressing it. The reason I've asked is that a red mare has had, possibly, a filly that appears to be a smokey grulla. The sire is Hollywood White, and he is a perlino dun. Anyway could someone explain how this happens. I will be most grateful.
TwinCreeksFarm
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Re: Red to black?

That's very possible. But I thought H.W. was H/Z agouti (AA)? If that is the case, then it is not possible! Do you have any pictures?

Heidi
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Re: Red to black?

A red mare is always going to be ee. The red mare can also carry agouti without it expressing on her red coat, because agouti only affects black-based coats.
If your red mare had a black foal, then your mare has to be either eeaa or eeAa and she passed one of her e's and a non-agouti 'a' to the foal.

The ONLY way a red mare can have a black foal, is if she has a non-agouti gene that she passed to that foal, and the foal received an 'E' and 'a' from the sire. This would result in Eeaa, a black foal. This sire, being a double dilute, the foal would be EeaaCrcr for a Smoky Black. Add Dun in there and the foal would be a Smoky Grulla.

accphotography
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Re: Red to black?

For some reason I was thinking his agouti status had not been tested. I remember us asking about it before and there being some unanswered question.

Chestnuts can carry agouti, but they do not express it. They can be either 'aa', 'Aa' or 'AA'. Either of the first two can produce a black foal to a black based stallion who also carries an 'a'.

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missmagus
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Re: Red to black?

Hollywood White has not been tested for Agouti so I don't know exactly what his status is. This mare is sorrel, a QH, and has never had a black foal before, mostly because she's been bred to sorrels. This is her third foal by HW - the first two are palominos - and this third may be buckskin or may be a grulla - I have not seen the foal yet, I will tomorrow, but the lady that owns the mare said she thinks she may be a grulla.

HW has had one other foal that I know is a smokey grulla - and the dam was a crop out sorrel, with tons of white on her - the filly is solid with no white. The lady that owns her has had her tested and she is a smokey grulla.

I know that agouti can be carried by a red mare, and not be expressed. So I just wanted to get a refresher from you guys on all of that.

Thanks!

Home of Hollywood White
3X NRHA World Champion Reining Horse
www.forgottenlane.com

accphotography
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Re: Red to black?

Has HW had any buckskins out of black mares?

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missmagus
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Re: Red to black?

He was bred to one black mare - he sired a palomino out of that mare. There is one black mare in the outside mares he's breeding this year, but I don't believe any, but the two I've mentioned, have been black that he's bred. He sired one smokey black filly that I know of out of a chestnut QH mare.

Home of Hollywood White
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www.forgottenlane.com

accphotography
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Re: Red to black?

Hmmm well we really don't know his status then. All we know is he has at least one 'a'.

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TwinCreeksFarm
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Re: Red to black?

?
He is a perlino dun. He has sired red bases, black bases, and bay bases. So he's Ee Aa and double cream.

missmagus
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Re: Red to black?

I saw that filly yesterday - took pictures so I will post one soon. I think she's just a very sooty buckskin - pretty filly.

Home of Hollywood White
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missmagus
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Re: Red to black?

Here's a photo of the filly. She's about a week old, sticks to her mother like glue so didn't get many shots of her - it was warm and she'd been sleeping in the grass and was a little sweaty. The more I look at her pictures the more I'm not sure of her color - so time will tell.

IMAGE(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/missmagus/2009%20foals/Redsbuckskinfilly4941May2509.jpg)

Home of Hollywood White
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Heidi
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Re: Red to black?

Has HW had any buckskins out of black mares?

I'm not sure I understand this question and what learning the answer would tell us. Is HW being questioned as to his status as Perlino or Cremello? OR is this question being asked to question his agouti status? ....because if HW is a Perlino, he must have E and he must have A in addition to two Crs.

Hmmm well we really don't know his status then. All we know is he has at least one 'a'.

What? I disagree. (I think!) I'm still a little confused about the 1st buck-outta-black question.

This post:

He was bred to one black mare - he sired a palomino out of that mare. There is one black mare in the outside mares he's breeding this year, but I don't believe any, but the two I've mentioned, have been black that he's bred. He sired one smokey black filly that I know of out of a chestnut QH mare.

HW is a Perlino who has sired a pally and a smoky black. EeAaCrCr (dun?)
I think the photo of the filly on pg2 looks like a buckskin.
ACK! I've just had a thought! Is the question actually not one of agouti (Aa or AA), but one of having any agouti at all, which would make this a defining discussion between HW being Perlino or Smoky Black? ...because if he is an SB, then he'd be aa for agouti status, right? EeaaCrCr? Was that the reason for asking about a buckskin foal from black mares, because that would prove he in fact *did* have an A?

missmagus
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Re: Red to black?

As he's at the ranch where he stands at stud - when he comes home this summer I'll get him tested to find out once and for all. I guess it would be a good thing to know.

So everyone thinks that the filly looks like a sooty buckskin?? Just wanted to get a number of opinions.

Home of Hollywood White
3X NRHA World Champion Reining Horse
www.forgottenlane.com

accphotography
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Re: Red to black?

Filly is *definitely* a buckskin IMO.

If Hollywood White's agouti status is unknown, it doesn't matter that he is called perlino. One can not know if a horse is a perlino without knowing that horse's agouti status. I personally do not believe he is a smokey cream, but it IS possible (especially since he has dun as well) and I was trying to prove that he has an 'A' since we already know he has an 'a'.

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Heidi
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Re: Red to black?

Do you mean you can't tell Perlino from Smoky Cream and it requires the agouti test (or foal crops) to know for certain? I have *great* difficulty telling some Perlinos apart from some Smoky Creams because it seems like the color/shading is very similar.

EDIT: I meant it is difficult to visibly tell the difference between P and SC...is that also what you are saying?

RiddleMeThis
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Re: Red to black?

Do you mean you can't tell Perlino from Smoky Cream and it requires the agouti test (or foal crops) to know for certain? I have *great* difficulty telling some Perlinos apart from some Smoky Creams because it seems like the color/shading is very similar.

EDIT: I meant it is difficult to visibly tell the difference between P and SC...is that also what you are saying?

Sometimes you can, sometimes you cant.

He looks perlino, but dun can sometimes have that effect especially darkening the points, so yes you may need an agouti test.

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accphotography
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Re: Red to black?

What RMT said. I *do* believe he is a perlino, but it sounds as though we don't have proof of that yet.

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Fledgesflight
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Re: Red to black?

Buckskin for the filly.

missmagus
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Re: Red to black?

Thanks everyone. So the test that I should get is the agouti? That will be the test that shows whether he is a perlino or Smokey Cream?

Home of Hollywood White
3X NRHA World Champion Reining Horse
www.forgottenlane.com

accphotography
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Re: Red to black?

I would, yes. I'm about 80% confident he will be 'Aa', but you never know.

As for the foal, agouti would prove him buckskin as well.

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TwinCreeksFarm
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Re: Red to black?

A-ha, I see what you're sayin ACC.
And I think the foal is buckskin as well!

missmagus
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Re: Red to black?

I received the test results today from UC Davis on Hollywood White. He is as I thought A/a and E/e. So there are many possibilities of color with him. Now I have the full story on him so there won't be any questions about color possibilities.

Strangely enough at the ranch where he stands we had 7 fillies - all buckskins. At my ranch we had two fillies - both palominos. His colts at my ranch and the other ranch have been buckskin, dunskin, palomino, and cremello/dun.

I have just sold all his fillies! So we only have 4 09 foals left for sale!

Home of Hollywood White
3X NRHA World Champion Reining Horse
www.forgottenlane.com