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Red Base Color + Red Base Color = Black Base Color?

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MitashiaR
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Red Base Color + Red Base Color = Black Base Color?
Isn't that supposed to be impossible? However, out of a palomino and chestnut/sorrel tobiano, we got a cherry bay tobiano. She is a deep reddish goldish bay, with a pretty little dark dorsal stripe. How is this possible?
RiddleMeThis
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Can we see pictures of sire,

Can we see pictures of sire, dam, and foal?

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Threnody
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Pictures would help.

Pictures would help. Sometimes pinto bays can have the white markings cover over any parts where black would show (on the legs, mane, and tail) making them look chestnut based instead of bay. I've seen cases of this in gypsy horses. But without images we can't tell if this pattern issue is the case or not. We can help you know if someone else was the sire or not when images are posted. :)

MitashiaR
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Sorry that this is so late,

Sorry that this is so late, but I think I figured it out. :) Chestnut horses still have the Agouti gene, and can carry any of the Agouti alleles, correct?

Also, here are pictures. The Mini in question is the bay pinto- Angel Eyes. The palomino is Angel's aunt, but looks exactly like Angel's sire. I don't have any pictures of the dam, but she is a chestnut tovero- so pretty basic looking minus the white.

Thanks for all the help. :)

~ MitashiaR

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CMhorses
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A chestnut with agouti is not

A chestnut with agouti is not going to produce a black based foal. Either one of the parents is not actually red based or one of the parents is not really the parent.

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MitashiaR
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CMhorses wrote:A chestnut

A chestnut with agouti is not going to produce a black based foal. Either one of the parents is not actually red based or one of the parents is not really the parent.

You're right. There was a big flaw in my logic. Two e/e horses cannot produce an E/e or E/E horse.... And I know that the parents are both chestnut-based, and have seen them both face-to-face....

Once I heard that a palomino can be black based, but I haven't really thought of it as truth, even though the person was supposedly really learned in horse genetics.

I'm so confused right now. :/

~ MitashiaR

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Threnody
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Palominos are not black

Palominos are not black based. They are a red base with one copy of cream. I think your friend may have been trying to explain how cream (which can cause palominos) can hide in black-based horses who lack agouti. Cream in one dose doesn't seriously dilute black pigment, while in one dose it visibly dilutes red. This is why buckskins (who are bays with 1 cream gene) have diluted bodies but retain black points. Black horses don't have much for 1 dose of cream to dilute, appear dark, and are called smoky black.

http://www.kriseanhorses.com/2008%20Kris...

This mare may appear black, but she is really smoky black. She produced a cremello foal (red + 2 cream genes) out of a cremello stallion. In order for the foal to have 2 cream genes, they had to inherit one copy from each parent, so one had to come from his dam. I hope this helps explain.

Unless a pic of the sire for visual analysis is found, I'm leaning towards the foal having a different sire than believed.

MitashiaR
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Ohhhh, okay. That would make

Ohhhh, okay. That would make much more sense than the friend actually thinking that palominos have a black base coat.

I actually do know that the sire is palomino. Both him, Angel, and the dam are at the stables, and the ladies who own the minis know who they bred who to. And, if it helps persuade you at all, it does have the palomino stud's name as the sire on Angel's papers.

Give me awhile, and I'll get a picture of the sire to you. :)

~ MitashiaR

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MitashiaR
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Here are the pictures of the sire

Here are the pictures of Buster, Angel's sire. The two abnormalities about him are 1) his partially blue eye, and 2) he has freckles on his nose. I doubt they have much significance, but thought I'd mention them. In case you're wondering, his parents are palomino and bay, and the palomino's parents are sorrel and palomino.

Angel's dam, Babe, was out of a sorrel roan and chestnut pinto, and turned out to be a chestnut tovero.

IMAGE(http://s7.postimage.org/4vcl0c4dn/2012_09_13_at_10_37_42.jpg)

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IMAGE(http://s7.postimage.org/am2re2cdn/2012_09_13_at_10_39_22.jpg)

IMAGE(http://s7.postimage.org/6eckj20bv/2012_09_13_at_10_40_22.jpg)

IMAGE(http://s7.postimage.org/h2gbhwaaz/2012_09_13_at_10_40_28.jpg)

~ MitashiaR

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tjuri
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MitashiaR wrote: I actually

I actually do know that the sire is palomino. Both him, Angel, and the dam are at the stables, and the ladies who own the minis know who they bred who to. And, if it helps persuade you at all, it does have the palomino stud's name as the sire on Angel's papers.

As for the owners of the minis: Do they also own the b/w frame mini-stallion pictured on your blog?
http://equinemasterpiece.blogspot.de/201...

Going with the obvious, I would bet he was the sire. Weirder things have happened.

Whatever is on the paperwork, it can't persuade anybody since only genetic parentage testing can actually "prove" sire and dam being the one on the papers. Happens every day.

Either that or the dam was not chestnut.

Two chestnut-based horses can't have bay offspring.

colorfan
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Perhaps the chestnut tovero

Perhaps the chestnut tovero is really a bay silver or amber champange, both have been mistaken for chestnuts and would explain the presence of bay in the filly.

When I ride I feel His pleasure.

MitashiaR
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tjuri wrote:As for the owners

As for the owners of the minis: Do they also own the b/w frame mini-stallion pictured on your blog?
http://equinemasterpiece.blogspot.de/201...

Going with the obvious, I would bet he was the sire. Weirder things have happened.

Yes, but Angel is now coming on 3 years of age, and we've only had the b/w pinto five months or so. It wasn't him, I can guarantee it. Besides him, at the time they had a buckskin stud, but it wasn't him, nor the other palomino stud that they were breeding some mares to at the time. I can pretty much guarantee that it was Buster.

Whatever is on the paperwork, it can't persuade anybody since only genetic parentage testing can actually "prove" sire and dam being the one on the papers. Happens every day.

Either that or the dam was not chestnut.

Two chestnut-based horses can't have bay offspring.

The dam is chestnut, or at least, appears that way.

Welcome to my world. :P Maybe if the parentage testing doesn't cost too much, I'll pay for it myself and find out.

~ MitashiaR

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MitashiaR
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Bay silver? Let me go check

Bay silver? Let me go check her papers. And, I doubt she's an amber champagne. I don't recall any freckles on her, slightly different eye color, and her body color is all the same (basically the flat reddish-brown color of a chestnut). Okay, the dam's out of a sorrel roan, and sired by a chestnut pinto. If I can find any of these horses (and their colors) online, I'll get back to you on it. :)

Err, no. Angel's dam cannot be a bay silver, or her mane and tail would be flaxen, or at least similar to flaxen.

~ MitashiaR

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MitashiaR
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Whoah. Okay.Perhaps Babe

Whoah. Okay.

Perhaps Babe (the dam of Angel) is a silver bay. I googled Babe's sire and found this horse. He's registered AMHR as a "chestnut pinto", but he sure looks silver dapple to me. Also, looks as if Babe's dam has foaled some silver foals as well.

Annnd, my memory must really be failing me. I did find some pictures of Babe, and her mane is NOT the same color as her coat. See this and this.

~ MitashiaR

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RiddleMeThis
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I think she's bay silver.

I think she's bay silver.

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colorfan
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Yeah look at the dark

Yeah look at the dark undercast both her mane has and her body color. Comparatively the stud has a very clear body color.

It would be great to test but my thoughts are the mare is bay silver.

I am not sure what you mean by flaxen, my confirmed bay silver has a very white mane with the same dark frosting as the pics you posted of the dam. \\\\M/

It is no wonder color genetics was so confusing before testing and we knew about silver and other 'new' dilutes.

When I ride I feel His pleasure.

Third Peppermint
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She looks like she could be

She looks like she could be bay silver to me, too. Her knees look pretty dark and she's got some dark roots in that mane. I bet silver bay mixed with all of the white of tobiano makes it tough to see unless you know what you're looking for.

MitashiaR
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colorfan wrote:Yeah look at

Yeah look at the dark undercast both her mane has and her body color. Comparatively the stud has a very clear body color.

It would be great to test but my thoughts are the mare is bay silver.

I am not sure what you mean by flaxen, my confirmed bay silver has a very white mane with the same dark frosting as the pics you posted of the dam.

It is no wonder color genetics was so confusing before testing and we knew about silver and other 'new' dilutes.

By flaxen, I just mean a chestnut horse with lighter mane and tail. :)

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that she is a bay silver. Thank you all SO much for figuring this out! :D

~ MitashiaR

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