Purebred Arabian with Cream is Claimed

Several things people have said make me want to :BH but at least there are some more sensible folks that are suggesting testing sire and dam and verifiying parentage via DNA. I noticed that both those labs are in Europe. Do they actually do there own testing or do they both contract out to other labs.

Unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility. I'd like to see both parents tested for cream.

I've no idea..I'm waiting to see how it all pans out. Interesting though.

Yeahhhh. This should be interesting.

I can see this ending up like that 'purebred' tobiano arab fiasco.

It is possible the cream could have sneaked in sometime before genetic testing and has been hanging around unknown. Especially if the line is mostly black.

If that is the case there is a chance it could remain in the gene pool because although a fence jumper is the most logical explanation there would be no way to prove it.

Can't say it isn't possible. That's how I personally think cream was reintroduced into TBs.

Exactly. But once it's in, it's in. And really, no one is naive enough to believe that hasn't happened, in Arabians or any other breed. But they'll have a devil of a time pinpointing the source. The only reason RWR Sonora was proven partbred was pure chance. If not for a paperwork screw-up and blood type on file, she would have gone in, since DNA matched.

I wonder if the labs in question test for the actual cream mutation or if they test for the wild-type allele? It could be possible for a new cream mutation to appear (although unlikely as cream doesn't seem to like to mutate like kit does).

The most likely scenario is still a fence jumper. I hope she takes everyone's advice and has a dna match done.

As far as I know it locates the actual cream mutation itself. That's why pearls don't test as creams.

The only mutation we haven't identified which is possibly on the cream locus is whatever causes those 'double dilute buckskins" featured at New Dilutions. Seems to act like another cream-activated recessive like Pearl.

Well if it tests for the actual mutation that pretty much rules out a new mutation. New mutation are rare any way and when you figure in the chances of a new mutation on the same gene testing the same as old one ymwhisle ymwhisle

LOL I had to go back and check this post to make sure I had typed gene instead of domain. (I've been doing web related research :rofl)

[b]Maigray[/b] here is a link to another discussion on the other possible Pali TB they are talking about. As far as we know she was probably born before DNA parentage verification, so could be another jumped the fence situation. http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/ho…

And [b]admin[/b], don't work too hard!

When they stated so definitively that there is an obvious difference in a Black and a Smokey Black, I knew they knew nothing of what they were talking about.

Which one is Smokey Black?

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[IMG]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

Oh my gosh - that's so funny - I had to bite my tongue hard to keep from replying to that one, and your boy was [i]exactly[/i] who I was thinking of! But I didn't want to get into a pissing contest about it.

To add - If I tried to counter all the misinformation on that thread, I would be insensate over the keyboard.

As far as TBs go I thought flaxen was pre-existing? I recall watching a race on HRTV and seeing a golden "flaxen" colt racing (no idea if he was actually cream/flaxen or not, looked about like a copper penny if I recall). Also pointing that he would be on allbreed pedigree as well. Its going to frustrate me that I really have no way of retrieving that specific information, as it was around 4-ish years ago.

There have always been Flaxen TBs, even here!
I can remember a line of Arabs that were SO Flaxen you would have thought they were Palomino, except that, of course, there is not, nor has there ever been, Cream in Arabs. If you go back to the roots of the breed, no Arab would have a Cream horse in his tent, or a blue eyed one either. Cream is useless in the desert and blue eye are the mark of the devil!
I know that the AHSB would not register this horse without PQ- what Arab stud book has she found that will? DNA is necessary on all foals, these days- the problem being that if the DNA of the direct parents pans out you would have to go back down the lines to find the culprit!
I hate these things happening, as it proves that your papers are actually worth nothing.
Cream came into out Shetlands via the back door, and it is only because Appy is excluded, by name, on the Breed Standard, that that was able to be prevented (although, really, what does it matter in the long run?)
There is no Cream in[i] proper[/i] Arabs, if this animal is accepted then, OK, so long as it conforms to the breed standard and is DNA PQ'd I suppose there is nothing that can be done, but every time something like this happens pedigree papers are devalued. It is [i]not[/i]possible, I do not think, that Cream could have hidden, Black Arabs have not been around in any number for long enough. I am, as you may remember, absolutely adamant that a fence jumper introduced Cream in TBs but since all they have to do is run fast in a straight line it hardly matters. Arabs have always been a horse of appearance- if it does not look amazing standing still and even better moving, it is not an Arab.
Messing with the pedigrees, however, was started by Lady W herself, she stated she could breed an Arab 16.00hh and she did - Rijm. She stated that she could breed an Arab 13.2hh and she did- Raffles.
Now, what a [i]coincidence[/i] that she happened to have the Greylight Welsh ponies on her land, and knew loads of people with racehorses, and that her Stud Groom who inherited a lot of the horses, burned ALL her records when she died........
So, it happens.
That it should happen today, with DNA testing, is ridiculous, I feel.

I think I remember a paper that checked mitochondrial DNA of Lipizzans and they basically found out that the "pedigrees" are worthless. A HUGE percent of the horses DNA didn't match their supposed ancestry. It'll be harder to sneak horses in now days, but yeah. Who knows what happened back in the day?

Ok here is a situation that actually happened to my dad. You have a unregistered paint mare that throws a solid foal and you have an AQHA mare who's foal dies. What would stop you (in the days before DNA) from registering the solid paints mares foals as the AQHA mares foal? Absolutely nothing. Now considering those breeds are so close it doesn't really matter (and my Dad is an honest guy and didn't do it) but he did consider it. At least to the point of commenting that the unregistered paint mares foal would be worth more if he had registered it AQHA.

Now say you have a similar situation with a less scrupulous breeder or one who simply doesn't see the difference (maybe mares are of the same type anyway) and there you go.

Arabian horse folks have an obsession with purity greater than any other breed people I know. The Bedouins were supposed to have been obsessed with purity, and that is where it came from and that is what the breed has based its reputation on. Rattle that apple tree and you'll set them off faster than anything else. Have you ever heard of breeding groups like Al-Khamsa, Blue List, and Asil? Someone actually went through all the studbooks and listed the horses they thought were pure and excluded the other 90%. Seriously - that is what they did.

P.S. Threnody - thanks for the info!

To me, if this is indeed a smokey black that has been hiding for generations, I don't think its a new mutation but rather a case like with that "shire" mare who was buckskin.

They traced the Shire mare back to the cream source and it was in a Shire registry that allowed out-crossed animals from what I've heard. Doesn't the Australian JC allow animals that are at least 8 generations TB? I've heard of breeders purposely breeding to allow new colors into the TB through this.

I don't think precise and thought out out-crossing itself is a bad thing. It adds new DNA and can add in lost or desired traits into a population. The out-crossing project in Dalmatians bred to a Pointer to remove the uric acid disorder present in every purebred Dalmatian something I fully support. It's to better the breed's overall health so how bad can that be? The back-crosses of the out-crosses aren't accepted everywhere, but I think they are helping more than hurting and they look like any other Dalmatian.

However, when "out-crossing" involves deceiving people and registries on purpose and for personal gain I take HUGE issue with that.

There are also a bunch of mtDNA studies that show how intermixed domestic and old breeds are. Being purebred is an illusion in most cases.

It's been resolved. It was a sample switching error, and the horse does not carry cream.

^ Was it posted on the original forum?

[Edit]: Nevermind, found it. lol

Kind of a bummer, but I'm not surprised. I am proud of how most people here agreed that is was unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility. It's nice to see open-mindedness.

When it comes to colours "miraculously" appearing, to the enormous personal gain of the owner, I am as close minded as a gin trap!!!
And sort of proud of it too.
Every group should have an embittered old cynic sitting in the corner muttering, it keeps them sane......

[quote=rabbitsfizz]Every group should have an embittered old cynic sitting in the corner muttering......[/quote]

Best mental image EVER.

What's a gin trap, anyway?

It's the old fashioned and now illegal trap with serrated edges that snaps shut on the animals leg when it puts it's foot on the trigger in the middle.

I have to agree with Peppermint, that quote was awesome rabbitsfizz. :HB

THAT'S a gin trap? I was thinking of gin and trying to figure out how you trap gin. I think I've always called those a bear trap, though. Dialect?

A bear trap would probably be a bigger version. They come in different sizes.

OK, thankfully it is all over.
The tests (even though she categorically stated that a trillion zillion undisputed test had been made (I also exaggerate, btw!) it appears it was a "simple" mix of of test results.
OK, cynic hat firmly on head- it seems to me that she found she could not get away with such an outrageous claim undisputed and had reckoned without the roars of anger this gathered on ANB- actually, I was surprised at how heated it got so quickly as they tend to be a lot of cliquey, abuser supporting do gooders most of the time.....