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Proof of Patn-1? New photos

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NZ Appaloosas
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Proof of Patn-1? New photos
Dam is, as you can see, the mare on the left (dam's baby photo is my profile picture), sire is our solid colt...I'm guessing filly foal is proof positive that dad got some of one or both of HIS parents' Patn gene(s)...he's by a blanket out of a leopard. Diane
rabbitsfizz
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OK, can you explain the

OK, can you explain the reasoning behind the statement?
I cannot see any problem with the foal being that pattern form the parents stated- so explain to me why it is unusual?
(Diane, I hope you know me well enough to know that there is no sarcasm or even scepticism intended, I am asking a simple qiestion.....)

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CMhorses
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So if I'm getting it right,

So if I'm getting it right, the dam and filly are both snowcap right? So that would mean that the dam is LpLp with a patn and the sire is Lp only if he is solid, because he would have to have Lp to pass to the filly or else she would be a blanket, and if he had patn he would be patterned, not solid.

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Daylene Alford
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I think the dam is roaned or

I think the dam is roaned or at most has a small blanket + roaning. In either of these cases she wouldn't have a large pattern gene to contribute. Since the foal appears to be a near leopard she probably has a large pattern gene which would have been contributed by the sire.

rabbitsfizz
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But, last year as you all

But, last year as you all know, I had a full blanket spot filly from a solid mare, by a pinto stallion with minimal characteristics- the only reason I now know they arecharacteristics is that this filly was born!!
The filly's dam is by a stallion who, in turn, is by a full Leopard.
The dam has NO characteristics at all. The filly was DNA proven (I just had to be sure!)

The sire of the filly is by a non Appy o/o a mare I can only assume was "hiding" Appy in her very splashy/sabino coat pattern. She is Falabella, but I have had no luck getting credible info on her patterns/colours in her pedigree.

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Daylene Alford
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According to the current

According to the current theory (which has been well vetted by the appaloosa project), your mare would have provided the pattern while the stallion provided LP which switched on the pattern.

NZ Appaloosas
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Mare in the first picture is

Mare in the first picture is the same horse that's in my avatar, so yes, she's roaned out to have as large a pattern as she currently has. Daddy has NO pattern, no sclera, no mottling (except for one pink patch on his willy, which we know is indicative of absolutely nothing) and no striped feet. He has a bit of a white back sock, and a skinny "dribbly" sort of blaze. New filly obviously has a lot more pattern than her mama does, so that's got to come from somewhere. Since her daddy was by a blanketed appaloosa out of a leopard appaloosa mare, he had a 50/50 shot of inheriting whatever gene(s) make the leopard pattern show, since his mama had it. He just lost out on the Lp gene, so has nothing to show that he has a big Patn hiding.

Real proof will be a coloured foal from him and our "solid" black mare.

NZ Appaloosas
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rabbitsfizz wrote:But, last

But, last year as you all know, I had a full blanket spot filly from a solid mare, by a pinto stallion with minimal characteristics- the only reason I now know they arecharacteristics is that this filly was born!!
The filly's dam is by a stallion who, in turn, is by a full Leopard.
The dam has NO characteristics at all. The filly was DNA proven (I just had to be sure!)

The sire of the filly is by a non Appy o/o a mare I can only assume was "hiding" Appy in her very splashy/sabino coat pattern. She is Falabella, but I have had no luck getting credible info on her patterns/colours in her pedigree.

As you say, dam is very likely hiding Lp under the other patterning genes she has--might pay to send hair to Animal Genetics, as they are offering the test now, but still may need to contact them "off website" as I've not checked to see if it is being offered on the website yet.

And other breeds could have Patn genes...in fact, I would hazard that most patterning does require Pattern-making-gene + Patn to make the patterning show up, given the differences in levels of expression in all the patterns.

rabbitsfizz
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I don't own Carlos' mother,

I don't own Carlos' mother, but I certainly intend to have him tested- I need to know what is going on- a Black Dun Roan mare I have, with an Appy sire and NO characteristics herself, has a varnish filly with mottles everywhere by Carlos- I am going to clip her in the spring and see what we have on the skin!!!

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NZ Appaloosas
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I'd have the mare tested,

I'd have the mare tested, too.

Diane

rabbitsfizz
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Yes, that's a good point but

Yes, that's a good point but I have had a number of non Appy foals from this mare by another stallion, so I do not think she has done this on her own. But Carlos first, to find out what is going on, then I guess I had better work my way through all the breeding mares.

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rabbitsfizz
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Yes, that's a good point but

Yes, that's a good point but I have had a number of non Appy foals from this mare by another stallion, so I do not think she has done this on her own. But Carlos first, to find out what is going on, then I guess I had better work my way through all the breeding mares.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Filly has an official name

Filly has an official name now....Waps Double Jeopardy

NZ Appaloosas
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4 weeks old now

4 weeks old now

NZ Appaloosas
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2 months and 1 week old now.

2 months and 1 week old now. So, since she's lost the facial/neck colouring and hasn't hit foal shed yet, does she qualify as a leopard rather than a near leopard?

:-? :-? ~x( ~x( :-? :-? :-? :-t :-t :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

NZ Appaloosas
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And, as you can see, she's

And, as you can see, she's inherited her parents' "crappy appy" tail.

critterkeeper
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NZ Appaloosas wrote:And, as

And, as you can see, she's inherited her parents' "crappy appy" tail.

:rofl :rofl :rofl

Kylene "A dog has lots of friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue." ~ Anonymous

rabbitsfizz
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As I understand it in order

As I understand it in order to be a Leopard there must be a Leopard parent- but, at this stage in the game I think it is semantics basically.
I am still struggling to understand the original question, though, since the mare is a Snowcap- her foal would have to be spotted of some sort, even if bred to a horse with no spotted background at all......

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NZ Appaloosas
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Well, Bubba (sire) had a

Well, Bubba (sire) had a leopard parent, so there is a 50/50 chance he got his mother's Patn-1 gene, which won't show because he doesn't have Lp. Since Jeopardy's dam was born with just a blanket to withers, and Jeopardy's pattern is significantly larger than that, it makes sense that Bubba is a "non-Lp leopard" (new term being coined :rofl :rofl ), who can pass on Patn-1 50% of the time.

The original question was whether or not Bubba inherited his dam's large "be white here" gene, which made her a nose-to-toes leopard. Based on current theory, that answer is yes I feel, because, as I said, Jeopardy has a larger birth parent than the parent that had obvious appaloosa patterning.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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And the second question is,

And the second question is, does the fact that she's lost the colouring on her neck and face so fast mean that she's really a leopard and not a near-leopard as indicated at birth.

Diane

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I would call her a leopard,

I would call her a leopard, but that's just semantics. Genetically, near-leopards and leopards are basically the same -- they both have at least one copy of Patn1. Leopards are often born with areas of base coat on their head & neck, which roans out to reveal spots.

Some "snowcaps" are actually near-fewspots -- a lower level expression of Patn1. They are perfectly capable of throwing leopard foals. Not saying that your mare is, since you know her breeding and know if she comes from blanket lines instead of leopard. But that's something I've seen happen many times. So, I wouldn't see anything unusual about a mare like that throwing a near-leopard/leopard foal.

NZ Appaloosas
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I see near-leopards as being

I see near-leopards as being two different genetic possibilities...the "near-leopard" that is really an extended blanket and the "near-leopard" that's really a suppressed leopard...

This is the first one we've had that lost the neck/face "solidness" before foal shed. But then again, this is also the first we've had that had such "transparent" neck/face "solidness" if that makes any sense.

Diane

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If the horse is genetically

If the horse is genetically an extended blanket, then it isn't a near-leopard. Well, not if you follow the guidelines set by the Appaloosa Project, which is what I try to do. They use the term "leopard" to denote a horse with at least one copy of Patn1. A horse with 80% to 100% white pattern level is called a leopard; 60% to 80% is a near-leopard; and less than 60% is a suppressed leopard. An extended blanket is just that...an extended blanket!

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