pinto genetics

You tell me where his dam came from..... ;)

No, it's NOT worth it because I simply don't care enough to bother. You're not going to change my opinion.

[quote="accphotography"]You tell me where his dam came from..... ;)

No, it's NOT worth it because I simply don't care enough to bother. You're not going to change my opinion.[/quote]

Lol ok well, Paint and QHs all started with the same QH's and Tobinos like Painted Jo were registered American running QH and they all had a unknown back there somewhere ok, but based on the evidence you have to admit some of the things you stated were incorrect, no relation to QH's is a big difference than having sire that is a QH. Is that not really the reason you no longer want to bother is that you have nothing to back up your statements and had no comments on the evidence I provided.

No... it's simply that I frankly really don't give a flying flip. You can be "correct" all you want. Makes no difference to me. It does seem to make one to you though. ;)

[quote="accphotography"]No... it's simply that I frankly really don't give a flying flip. You can be "correct" all you want. Makes no difference to me. It does seem to make one to you though. ;)[/quote]

Well yeah I do care about both breeds as a whole and horse history and that anyones opinions can at least be backed up with facts then I'm all ears but otherwize don't argue if you have nothing to back up your statements.

I don't know anything about it much either way, but rodeoratdogs arguments sound logical to me. *shrugs*

[quote="colorfan"]ok, thanks.

The APHA has a way to register 'solid' paints. They used to call them breeding stock but have changed the name.
Seems odd the QH would now be allowing cropouts when they wouldn't for so long which is why the APHA came to be.[/quote]

Yeah it is, they keep changeing the rules but AQHA did completely get rid of its no white rule, and that is why the APHA came to be, it didn't happen over night they kept allowing more and more white and then got rid of the rule completely, but I think that AQHA finally got smart and realized a QH is a QH no matter what color it is and is now keeping the valueble horses that they used to hand over to APHA, and they were loosing money not registering those horses as well. It seems like every time AQHA changes a rule then APHA changes one. APHA is now allowing alot less white, I have a gelding that is registered solid that is now eligable for regular papers, just this year they changed that rule. Pretty soon if they keep changeing the rules it will become one breed again lol! Here is my gelding so you can see his markings. His rear sock being more that 2" above the hock now makes him eligable for regular paint papers even though he is almost all solid.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/i+cd+sp…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [img]http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy13…]

I'm confused about all this... Aren't TBs with excessive white allowed to be APHA registered? So APHA is a mixture of QH, TB, and whatever other stock breed threw tobiano into the mix... I don't know, I've never owned any registered paints, and all my friends who own them don't care that much about the logistics of it, they just care whether they get the papers to sell the babies.

[quote="Krickette"]I'm confused about all this... Aren't TBs with excessive white allowed to be APHA registered? So APHA is a mixture of QH, TB, and whatever other stock breed threw tobiano into the mix... I don't know, I've never owned any registered paints, and all my friends who own them don't care that much about the logistics of it, they just care whether they get the papers to sell the babies.[/quote]

Well it used to be that if the horse was Appendix QH/TB and it was a cropout paint it could be registered Paint because they used to not allow excess white in the AQHA, but now since AQHA got rid of their no white rule, then APHA decided to have a one Paint parent rule, so not anymore. As far as full TB that were painted I dont think APHA ever did register them paint, but JC doesn't exclude Paints, if a TB is born painted it't still a TB and they know that. In my opinion AQHA never should have excluded QH's that were painted with any paint gene including Tobiano because all the Tobiano's that the APHA horses go back to were either registered American Paint Quarter horse Association or American Paint stock horse Association or even American running Quarter horse association. [b]All[/b] were considered QH's at one time, APHA only came about because AQHA back in the late 50's decided not to allow excess white and so APHA was created to register the QH's that were Painted. Both AQHA and APHA have always allowed a % of TB blood.

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-347817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; This horse is double registered APHA and JC. JC only allows full blooded thoroughbreds, so it has to be 100%. There are a lot more examples of dual registereds here: http://www.norsirefarms.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually JC isn't just full blood TB. I can't remember exactly how it works but Australia didn't used to accept JC rego as stud book TB. Might have changed now though. As you say TB's can be in the paint society. But considering you can have a mostly TB QH I find it much of a muchness myself.

Ok here you go, I wasn't sure about the 2 TB parent paint being able to be registered APHA, I thought I remembered somthing out of one of my old Paint horse journals but I thought maybe that was just that TB' Paints could be used for breeding to paints. Anyhow here is the rule change off of APHA. Any Paints that were registered that had 2 JC parents or 2 QH parents prior to the rule change still get to keep their paint papers but as of JAN 1st 2005 their was the 1 paint parent rule, here is the link to the rule change at the APHA site.

http://www.apha.com/pressroom/2004/04_n…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ah. Well I am assuming some of the mares must be APHA registered according to the old rules and maybe that's how these foals are getting in. Because they are pure thoroughbred. Like this foal: http://www.norsirefarms.com/blizzy.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is by: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.p…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
out of: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.p…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes. Virtually all of the frame line horses will keep the APHA registration going as the original breeders got most of them registered back when they could. Same with some of the DW lines.

Remember, APHA only went to their one-paint parent rule when AQHA removed their white restrictions; so we're looking at a very 'recent' restriction on 'pure crop-outs', around 6 years ago.

Diane

Yep very recent, and yes if the JC horses were registered Paint before the rule change then they still have their Paint papers and would be considered the "one Paint parent".

I actually had to go back and read all that again. I remember making a comment a while back in regards to what I basically call 'breeders soup'. I know I'm a purest, or try to be, so you can just ignore my near 5am ramblings LOL. But this is what happens when breeder start crossings other breeds together, to register under a single breed name. I remember my old stash of mags I had (still black and white) when it was foundation-this and foundation-that. And for the most part there was an overall physical type for a horse breed registry. Then there were other breeds added, like TB, and Arab, and the breed took another forum. And yes, I know, a good breeder is going to breed for functionality. But when I look at a horses papers, and I see they are more TB then anything else, and are registered as an appaloosa, a paint, or a QH, I have a hard time getting my head around them actually being any of those 'breeds'. Same thing for the warmbloods, specially since they can be evaluated with different registries then either parent and be considered a completely different breed.

And on that note, with so many other breeds crossed into the blood line, does it honestly have ANY impact as to what foundation horse they can trace back to (aside from registration if you want to get techi on me). It seems like AC is defining a breed based on the foundation, and not the future. I mean come on, the Impressive line runs wildly through all three stock registries. They swap DNA as frequently as hormonal kids in school swap mono.

[quote="JNFerrigno"]I actually had to go back and read all that again. I remember making a comment a while back in regards to what I basically call 'breeders soup'. I know I'm a purest, or try to be, so you can just ignore my near 5am ramblings LOL. But this is what happens when breeder start crossings other breeds together, to register under a single breed name. I remember my old stash of mags I had (still black and white) when it was foundation-this and foundation-that. And for the most part there was an overall physical type for a horse breed registry. Then there were other breeds added, like TB, and Arab, and the breed took another forum. And yes, I know, a good breeder is going to breed for functionality. But when I look at a horses papers, and I see they are more TB then anything else, and are registered as an appaloosa, a paint, or a QH, I have a hard time getting my head around them actually being any of those 'breeds'. Same thing for the warmbloods, specially since they can be evaluated with different registries then either parent and be considered a completely different breed.

And on that note, with so many other breeds crossed into the blood line, does it honestly have ANY impact as to what foundation horse they can trace back to (aside from registration if you want to get techi on me). It seems like AC is defining a breed based on the foundation, and not the future. I mean come on, the Impressive line runs wildly through all three stock registries. They swap DNA as frequently as hormonal kids in school swap mono.[/quote]

Yes that is a whole other debate I guess. Many would argue that a QH or a Paint is not the a QH or Paint if it is a TB, but we have to remember that the foundation of both breeds that I still consider 1 had alot of TB to begin with being that it was a speed horse to begin with. Most of the TB used early on were heavier muscled sprinters that if most people saw a picture of not knowing they were a TB would swear they were a QH. QH's/paints indeed got there athletic look from some of these. That being said with all of the very specialized breeding for spacific compitions instead of breeding for versatility like we used to you will find some hunter jumper type horses that are almost all TB and don't remind to much of the older type QH and Paints.
Here are a couple of TB's that are considered the foundation for QH/Paints from volume 1 of Legends ( outstanding QH stallions and mares)
Three bars, most people think he was a QH but he was a TB http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/three+b…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Top Deck TB http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/top+deck" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Depth charge TB http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/depth+c…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Plaudit 1/2 TB http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/plaudit3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Joe Reed 1/2 TB and the grandsire of the great Leo
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/joe+reed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can't leave out Doc bar x Lightning Bar x Three Bars TB, Doc Bar when crossed on Poco Lena produced 2 sons Dry Doc and Doc o Lena that started a cutting horse dynasty that is still going on today.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/doc+bar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah I understand about them being used as part of the foundation. But that was in it's development, and there are more then enough horses to keep the line and type going without having to out source more. But that's just how I see it. It's like some ranchers, back before there was genetic testing, would have their ranch stock run with feral horses. Just because they were used in some lines, doesn't mean they are crossed and registered any more LOL. Most of those lines you see in the QH and Paints, I know the Plaudit line is common in the Appies. There's a Plaudit App line here where I live that is Splash, but for the the life of me I can't figure out why it is never expressed more then stockings and a blaze.

Don't get me wrong, some of my favorite stock have come out of TB crosses. *swoons at Rugged Lark*. At the same time I've always had a giggle at some one who says, their horse traces back to tom dick and jane, as if it matters in their value, when it goes back 10 generations and is filled with no name horses and TB's. I'm fond of the 80% rule that the NFQHA has. And at least with this breed there isn't a limited gene pool where inbreeding becomes an issue. In that case I'm not against out sourcing, but when it's done so much, that it becomes a 'breed' only by name and no longer by type, it's like throwing all those generations of hard work out the window.

[quote="JNFerrigno"]There's a Plaudit App line here where I live that is Splash, but for the the life of me I can't figure out why it is never expressed more then stockings and a blaze. [/quote]
It does, but either ApHa doesn't or didnt until recently register horses with loud markings.

Loud characteristic mare
[img]http://www.coloredhorses.com/lucy2.jpg[…]

Loud lacy blanket foal
[img]http://www.coloredhorses.com/hobby2.jpg…]
[img]http://www.coloredhorses.com/hobby1.jpg…]

[quote="JNFerrigno"]Yeah I understand about them being used as part of the foundation. But that was in it's development, and there are more then enough horses to keep the line and type going without having to out source more. But that's just how I see it. It's like some ranchers, back before there was genetic testing, would have their ranch stock run with feral horses. Just because they were used in some lines, doesn't mean they are crossed and registered any more LOL. Most of those lines you see in the QH and Paints, I know the Plaudit line is common in the Appies. There's a Plaudit App line here where I live that is Splash, but for the the life of me I can't figure out why it is never expressed more then stockings and a blaze.

Don't get me wrong, some of my favorite stock have come out of TB crosses. *swoons at Rugged Lark*. At the same time I've always had a giggle at some one who says, their horse traces back to tom * and jane, as if it matters in their value, when it goes back 10 generations and is filled with no name horses and TB's. I'm fond of the 80% rule that the NFQHA has. And at least with this breed there isn't a limited gene pool where inbreeding becomes an issue. In that case I'm not against out sourcing, but when it's done so much, that it becomes a 'breed' only by name and no longer by type, it's like throwing all those generations of hard work out the window.[/quote]

I totally get ya , I too am fond of the NFQHA horses, but some would argue that if we don't continue to do the same kind of TB crosses they did back in the day we will loose the versatiliy that used to produce the supreme champions and I think that is a valid point. We are not getting the supreme champions any more, the ones that can do it all, because the different events are so specialized that the horses are being bred for just one event including the horses is the NFQHA.
Here are some of my absolute favorite supreme champions.

Yellow Mount
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/yellow+…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Chicka Mount
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/chicka+…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gambling Man
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gamblin…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote="RiddleMeThis"][quote="JNFerrigno"]There's a Plaudit App line here where I live that is Splash, but for the the life of me I can't figure out why it is never expressed more then stockings and a blaze. [/quote]
It does, but either ApHa doesn't or didnt until recently register horses with loud markings.

Loud characteristic mare
[img]http://www.coloredhorses.com/lucy2.jpg[…]

Loud lacy blanket foal
[img]http://www.coloredhorses.com/hobby2.jpg…]
[img]http://www.coloredhorses.com/hobby1.jpg…]

Yeah via Old fred one of the founding father's of the QH breed and a AQHA hall of famer who was atleast Splash white.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/plaudit3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/old+fred" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ah glad to see it! Alias Ghost King was one of them I was looking at http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/alias+g…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; He goes back to the Plaudit line. And I'm intrested to know if it's sabino, splash, or what. Cause Prince Plaudit looks like he's got some white stockings going on there, which seems to be the trend with lots of Plaudit horses. Stockings and blaze. However in those cases, they all have dark colored eyes. And since most don't believe blue eyes just to pop up due to white. I've found a few offspring that have blue eyes and come from a cross where one parent has dark eyes and splash-like markings.

This foal for example, http://www.kssponyfarm.com/cooper.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is out of ghost king, who's noted by owners to have two blue eyes.

Zips Blue Print is out of Zippo Blue Eyes http://www.bluedaisyfarm.com/ZipsBluePr…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and one of the babies I knew growing up. He's got some splash babies out there now.

ugh...>_> Think I need to correct myself in saying that the splash traces to Plaudette most likely, and not Plaudit I think.

Ugh, sorry, tired again, and found this article that I skimmed, but will have to read it tomorrow http://www.equinechronicle.com/communit…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hank Wiescamp is the man that bred QH's, Paint's and Appaloosa's From the Plaudit line. If you can get you hands on a book called the Hank Wiescamp story (Western Horseman book) by Frank Holmes it would probably be a very interesting read for you. He is most famous for breeding and owning Prince Plaudit and Skipper W. He also bred alot of good Paints from the Skipper W line.
Anyhow the books talks about how many of the horses he bred had the splash gene tracing back to Old Fred.

Actually here you go this is the Author Frank Holmes site, these are my favorite books. I have got a couple of them autographed from him, I actually met him on the allbreedpedigree forum.

http://www.loftent.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sweet, I am always looking for a new book to read.

The Prince Plaudits definitely can have sabino going on--the white blanket with lots of space between the spots are thought to be a sabino-impact. I've not heard that the PPs carry splash tho', other than from 'outside' blood. I've seen quite a few over the years (as PP is one of my fave bloodlines), and I see sabino, not splash.

Diane

I agree there was probably Sabino, but PP did trace directly back Old Fred who was Splash & I think also Sabino judging from the shape of his back socks but PP may have just got the Sabino part. Taking a closer look at the horses that JNFFerrigno posted the common denominator of those horses is Bright Eyes brother out of Plaudette who was a splash/appaloosa and also traced back to Old Fred.
I have always been a big fan of his Bright eyes brother's sibling of who he was named for "Maddon's Bright eye's".

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/plaudet…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bright+…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/maddons…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .....in this picture she is looking up in the air and by this same picture in LEGENDS volume 3, it says she did this before the starts of her races and at other times. It says it was as though she could see somthing we could not. Really cool, I always thought and then shortly after I got Annie I noticed she does the exact same thing! I always wonder what she's looking at, I never had a horse look up in the air like that.

Funny! Annie go's back to Plaudette a couple of times, I just noticed that.

If the line JFN is talking about is the one I think it is, there's no PP behind the line, despite the use of the Plaudit name. If you can find a photo of Hollywood Plaudit, from memory, there's no indication of splash. Not many photos on the dam side on Allbreed, but no signs of splash there either. However, on the dam side of the stallion I think JFN is talking about, there's a TB with some very interesting socks, which could be the source.

Of course, I could be wrong, and JFN is talking about another stallion, but there on the dam side he does go back to the same line I reference above..

NZ-bred appaloosas are pretty well related! LOL

Diane

NZ I think you're right. I think I was getting Plaudette and Plaudit confused, even though Plaudette is by Plaudit. When the owner would talk about the horses, she'd just say they were Plaudit bred. I know that Zips Blue Print goes back to Plaudette through his dam, and I'm sure they are splash, blue eyes and all, and splashy get. His dam has been sold, and he's still breeding. When I first got into the Apps when I was much younger, there was a Plaudette or Plaudit mare who had the 4 white legs, blaze and blue eyes. She had a half brother that looked the same way, and her foals had the same markings. I never ever gave it any thought till talking with...Carolyn Shepard and her splashed appy mare? Back then I always considered splash to be a paint horse color, and didn't know that blue eyes are attributed to frame and splash exclusively.

Oh well just noticed that these 2 horses JNF posted wnet back to Bright eyes brother......
http://www.kssponyfarm.com/cooper.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bluedaisyfarm.com/ZipsBluePr…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But there is Plaudit TB http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/plaudit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is the grandfather of
Plaudit QH http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/plaudit3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and then Plaudette mare pintaloosa the dam of Maddons bright eyes and bright eyes brother http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/plaudet…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Both Plaudette pintaloosa and Plaudit QH and grandget of Plaudit TB, but they didn't get their splash from him but rather Old Fred who they also both went back to.

So what TB are you talking about NZ with the white socks?