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Pink skin UNDER pigmented hair?

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gypsycobs
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In the cobs at least the

In the cobs at least the silver + cream on black changes the skin a bit. I just went and looked at my silver black stallions skin and my silver bay babies skin, both have lighter / purple skin and the stallion has a tan bottom... is that the in of thing you mean?

accphotography
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gypsycobs wrote:In the cobs

In the cobs at least the silver + cream on black changes the skin a bit. I just went and looked at my silver black stallions skin and my silver bay babies skin, both have lighter / purple skin and the stallion has a tan bottom... is that the in of thing you mean?

That's exactly what I meant. I've seen several black based silvers that clearly have different skin than other black bases. Blotchy and/or purple is exactly how I'd describe what I've seen.

I finally got to see Bo's photos thanks to Facebook. If no one had said anything to me about it or had just asked "what's up with his skin" I would have just said "palomino mottling". It looks very much like the examples of palomino mottling that ICHR has on their website (larger mottles, but I suppose that could be variable).

I still would be curious to see a silver test.

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gypsycobs
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accphotography wrote:I

I finally got to see Bo's photos thanks to Facebook. If no one had said anything to me about it or had just asked "what's up with his skin" I would have just said "palomino mottling". It looks very much like the examples of palomino mottling that ICHR has on their website (larger mottles, but I suppose that could be variable).

HI, glad you could see the photos. What do you make of the pink skin with pigmented hair though? It's not so much the mottling that I'm curious about so much as the pink skin. I wish I didn't forget to bring my camera home as it's been raining all day and obviously Bo is SOAKING wet and you can really see that he is 100% no questions asked palomino with a bit of white, for legs and a bit up his hindquarter plus blaze, so it's defiantly not pink skin and white markings

Daylene Alford
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Oh, I'm aware that silver can

Oh, I'm aware that silver can cause purple skin and sometimes mottling. I even posted the comparison pic that has silver mottling on the first page of the thread. That just seems way far and away different from what we're seeing in this guy.

I couldn't remember what the photos on the ICR site so I headed over there after reviewing the photos, I disagree that these mottles look like palomino mottling. I still think it more closely resembles LP mottling. Of course, expression varies, I'll admit I could be way off.

These specifically are the ones to which I'm referring.

IMAGE(http://colorgenetics.info/equine/sites/default/files/imagecache/article/bobum_0.jpg)
IMAGE(http://colorgenetics.info/equine/sites/default/files/imagecache/article/bowang.jpg)

I'd love to see photos of his dams mottling.

Good to see you again btw ACC.

gypsycobs
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I have to agree (though could

I have to agree (though could of course be way off) that Bo's mottling doesn't fit the regular palomino style, too large and its also on his ears, around his eyes (though around his eyes are very heavy so looks all pigmented unless you look) and he has the odd random one dotted here and there on his body they are about the size of a five cent piece or a quarter roughly.
I will hopefully have some photos of Mum's skin soon to post for you admin.
I'm sending off some more hair to Animal genetics, re do the SB1 test and also the dilution ones of champagne, silver and pearl then he has had all the available tests with the exception of grey and OWLS and we will know for sure what he's not if nothing else before too much longer.

accphotography
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With palomino mottling there

With palomino mottling there is pigmented hair over pink skin. *nods*

I agree that his pinkmottles are quite abnormally large for palomino mottling, especially under the tail (where it really looks like LP's handiwork), but I suspect we don't really know the full range possible within palomino mottling and his could just be "unusual".

I did see another horse just like this once, also a palomino, who had mottling similar to this, but he was a DW. Interestingly enough, he didn't have white anywhere near where he was mottled the heaviest. I don't think the skin on other areas is being affected by DW, but *shrug*.

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gypsycobs
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H ACC sorry could be having a

H ACC sorry could be having a massive blond moment here but could you please re explain the following for me. All I can understand is that you saw another horse like this but he was dominant white. When you say you don't think the skin on the other areas is being affected by DW, who do you mean? The horse you saw or my boy, Bo? If Bo, do you mean his pink skin??? Sorry I really just don't follow.

I did see another horse just like this once, also a palomino, who had mottling similar to this, but he was a DW. Interestingly enough, he didn't have white anywhere near where he was mottled the heaviest. I don't think the skin on other areas is being affected by DW, but *shrug*.

accphotography
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The other horse looked very

The other horse looked very similar to Bo, but the other horse is DW. However, his DW markings stopped well below the most noticeable of his mottling and there was no white hair there at all. It just looked like really extensive palomino mottling.

What I was saying is that in both of their cases, I don't believe simply having dominant white is causing this mottling in all of these areas when the dominant white markings haven't gotten even close to those areas visually.

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gypsycobs
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Arrr I see, thanks for

Arrr I see, thanks for explaining that.

I joined the Appaloosa Project and have sent his pics and details off to them, I have recieved two e-mails back so far they said that he is very interesting and are going to have a bit of a chat with a few of the experts and geneticists regarding the pigmented hair growing from un-pigmented skin and see if they can figure out what's going on.
They said that of course, his current testing doesn't explain his lack of skin pigmentation in any way shape or form, nor the spotting he is showing.
The also said, The size and location of his face and leg markings indicate that he is not a highly expressed sabino. Extreme sabino markings look somewhat like face and leg markings that have taken over the body - the legs are mainly white, and the blaze affects much of the head, plus a lot of body spotting spreading up from the belly. There are examples on this website, in the album called "Paint Patterns".

The hairs we sent off must have arrived with Animal Genetics as my card has been debited so I guess we will soon know if he has pink skin due to having two different dilution genes and also getting SB1 re done, just so that he has been fully tested for everything.

Daylene Alford
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Please keep us posted. He is

Please keep us posted. He is fascinating.

CMhorses
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You did say he tested

You did say he tested negative for sb1 right?

Speaking of the sabino album,I think some of those need to be moved to the DW gallery.

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gypsycobs
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Will defiantly keep you

Will defiantly keep you updated Admin :grin: and yes CMhorses, he isn't SB1 I'm told but havent seen the test for that, it wasn't done with the cream / red-black / agouti / tobi testing so I just want to double check but I can see with my own eyes that he isn't going to be a max sabino or anything...
Once we get the results back I guess we will know exactly what he isn't at least

CMhorses
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If anything hes DW more than

If anything hes DW more than sabino, has that same look that clydes have, and a lot of other more minimal DW horses, but I could just be getting rusty.

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gypsycobs
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How could he be DW? Don't

How could he be DW? Don't they have white coats? Bo defiantly doesn't have a white coat. If you look at these two photos you can see the dark underlying skin, it goes no further than the grey shading look... then you have the continuation of pigmented hair with PINK skin. And with DW... if there is partial pigmentation of the coat doesn't it disappear with in a couple of years? Bo is doing the opposite... he is gaining colour rather than loosing it

gypsycobs
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Ooo hang on... dominant white

Ooo hang on... dominant white can do these ones too can't it! I forgot as white genes are something I'm still trying to learn about 8-}

http://equinetapestry.files.wordpress.co...

In that case, then yes, I agree about dominant white as far as his visual appearance.... does it explain the pigmented hair over pink skin though? Can you test for it?

CMhorses
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Well ACC said she didn't

Well ACC said she didn't think it was DW causing the mottling on a different horse, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have it, I was just saying that is possibly the cause of his white markings in general, but you wouldn't be able to test for it.
His family has a DW look to it imo, plus his dam and full sister too
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1...
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1...

This is another even more minimal DW than the one you posted, and there are several arabians in the sabino gallery that I think we agreed were DW rather than sabino. http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColours...

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gypsycobs
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Thanks for that CMhorses, I

Thanks for that CMhorses, I did a lot of reading on DW and Sabino last night and I'm pretty sure I can mostly tell the difference visually between the two now. Until you brought my attention to DW I just thought it made for an all white horse, so again, thanks as now I know that little bit extra :)
The more I looked and researched the more convinced I became that Bo has DW which is also very likely of course based on parents and also the amount of DW in Cobs in general by the looks!
So... for argument's sake lets say yes to DW and Lp combination, would THAT result in his pink hide? Can they have Lp and only have spotty skin in thin skinned regions? Or does it have to cover the whole body a bit more evenly rather than just the odd random dot here and there?
If he did have Lp how do you know if he also hast PATN? Because neither parent are spotted would that be unlikely? If he is Lp will he produce spotted babies over non spotted mares?

Also I got two photos of his mums skin, she has a teeny bit of a mottled look on her anus and vulva but the same amount and style as Bo has on her udder. I can't up load them at the moment but will be able to when I get home tonight.

And lastly, I recieved another e-mail pretty much saying doesn't look like pally or sabino, rather the work of Lp

Thanks again

Melinda

CMhorses
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We know he doesn't have Lp

We know he doesn't have Lp and PATN because if he did he would be a spotted appaloosa pattern, now he could have one or the other, Lp would/could cause roaning and mottling, while PATN is invisible. His parents don't really look like obvious Lp carriers but it can hide very well, and not show up until later in life or not at all aside from minimal roaning/mottling, and with white legs and face looking for striped hooves is impossible, and a sclera is usually already present from the face white. Also any roaning they have could be caused from DW too, but if you say his dam has some mottled areas then its very possible she is a Lp carrier.
I will say Lp is the easiest and most likely explanation for the mottling, as Lp mottling is most obvious in thin skinned areas, but I believe it can/does mottle other areas, but I'd like to have someone verify that for me..

If he is Lp, he may or may not varnish over time, and he would be able to pass it to foals at a 50% rate (granted he was only heterozygous Lp) who also may or may not varnish,but he could not produce spotted foals out of non PATN carrying mares.

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gypsycobs
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Hmm I see (said the blind man

Hmm I see (said the blind man LOL)
So... where he is starting to get palomino coloured spots on his coat... what doe's that mean in relation to the above? I found about five of them so far

CMhorses
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Well he could just be an

Well he could just be an extremely light palomino and hes getting darker spots like some get. (shrug) Just an idea.

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gypsycobs
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well! how rude of him

well! how rude of him :rofl

gypsycobs
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A friend of mine just asked

:-? A friend of mine just asked me if this colt was silver bay... I didn't even think of that CANT believe it didn't occur to me. He doesn't have a dark leg though on his front right (only one without a white marking)
I'm going to ask for a photo of his mum, he has the same sire as my colt

CMhorses
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Possibly, but he really just

Possibly, but he really just doesn't have that silver bay look to him, but he wouldn't have to have dark points. I've seen some that had points that were lighter than the body tone.
He kind of reminds me of this one from our gallery, but his body tone doesn't look quite right for silver bay. I'd like to see more pictures and hear some people with more expertise than me.
http://colorgenetics.info/equine/gallery...

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Danni
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He doesn't really look silver

He doesn't really look silver bay in that picture with the pale legs, but does he have a slight winter coat? The points seem to shrink with a winter coat and you wouldn't see them with his white stockings. That front knee and lower leg though with no white, I'd expect to see at least a bit of greyish? I'd like to see more pictures of him. I agree that he doesn't really have a silver bay tone to him though. Mind you I've seen some pretty chestnut looking silver bays!

gypsycobs
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Mmm ok... I was in two minds

Mmm ok... I was in two minds about that, couldn't decide either way. I have met this horse and he is a red colour with white WHITE points and I remember thinking at the time WOW I've never seen a GC this colour chestnut before! So that made me wonder when a friend asked me but then I though, hmm no because of that light leg and surely there would be more silvers from Shambo etc.... then I went back to maybe he is because Shambo seems to go over mostly bay and chestnut mares that I know of and it COULD explain why he sires white pally foals, maybe they had cream and silver... then back to no because Shambo isn't white.... hence I just asked. :rofl

Ok anyway, received these two photos of Bo's mums skin (no white marking around her udder either)

CMhorses
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This one is listed as a

This one is listed as a silver bay thats pretty bright red with lighter points
http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/50...
It's definitely possible for that phenotype but the colt you posted is probably just a bright chestnut.

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gypsycobs
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Yeah he is the same colour as

Yeah he is the same colour as my silver bay who is Danni's (user above with the black and white cob mare as her user pic) except Aladdin has a bit of smut if you will on his knees. Thanks for finding his pic and posting it!
Actually thanks for all your efforts in aiding my obsession here :)

I'm BUSTING for the dilution and SB1 tests back from Animal Genetics!

Daylene Alford
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It would be so awesome to

It would be so awesome to have an LP test about now...

gypsycobs
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admin wrote:It would be so

It would be so awesome to have an LP test about now...

I know I know :-B

I got an e-mail from a lady who is writing a colour book I think, she has a blog that she wants to put the piccies up on that. Her gut feeling is Lp. Others think sabino... I keep arguing that he isn't max or predominantly sabino... he has distinct white, its not spotty all over, white all over or otherwise. I'm pretty confident that CMhorses is correct re the DW
I think I just want to know WHY he has the pink skin

CMhorses
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Lp is the easiest answer for

Lp is the easiest answer for the problem from what we currently know about skin mottling patterns, plus it can hide easily but unfortunately any varnishing he has will be nearly invisible unless he darkens considerably... but you can always watch his full siblings and other foals from his dam (she looked like the best candidate for potential Lp) that are not dilutes.

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