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MOST Unusual! Minimal Tobiano

Songcatcher September 04, 2011 September 04, 2011

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I have received an email from a friend, asking about the possibility of her foal's color. I have her permission to post the pictures here. I will just quote her question. [quote]IS THIS POSSIBLE?? Got up this morning to this foal running around her dam, the bay mare is pictured. The mare does not have a light hair on her. The foals sire is our bay Buckeroo grandson, Buc, also pictured. He does not have a light marking on him, but does have a tiny bit of roaning at times, his sire was a true roan. The mare is Checkmates Bay Bosss Review and the sire is COH Buccarra Bourbon if you want to look up the pedigrees on studbook. The mare does have two or three pintos back several generations, don't think he has any! I am totally confused and, yes, I do plan to do DNA even though I know it is not possible she could have been bred any other way. What do you think?? Anne Collum www.abcfarm...net [/quote] Here are the photos: sire: [IMG]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/…] [IMG]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/…] dam: [IMG]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/…] dam with foal: [IMG]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/…] Quite obviously, sire or dam MUST be Tobiano. She plans on testing. I don't see a single Pinto listed in the dam's pedigree (4 generations) and the only Pintos listed in the sire's pedigree are at least 4 generations back. I'm super interested in seeing her testing results.

Daylene Alford Sun, 09/04/2011 - 14:16

Actually, I don't think that is Tobiano. It just doesn't look quite right. I'm interested to hear what others have to say but I think it may be Splash. Splash would definitely be possible but the lack of face white is odd.

A new mutation is also possible. It does happen occasionally.

Threnody Sun, 09/04/2011 - 14:25

Wow! Now THAT is unexpected.

I wouldn't discount the other stallion on the property who is black homozygous tobiano. Even if he and the dam weren't near each other it doesn't rule him out as a possible sire.

Looking forward to the test results.

Songcatcher Sun, 09/04/2011 - 14:44

I asked if there was the possibility of them getting together or even sharing a fence. This was her reply:

[quote]The mare has been on Buc's pasture since she had her foal in 2010 and Buc's pasture and Little's pasture are divided by the driveway plus 15 feet.
We plan to DNA the baby to be certain.

[/quote]

lipigirl Sun, 09/04/2011 - 15:23

I think the foal does look tobiano, we have most pinto in the barest minimal form - stranger things do happen !......but I would get both the mare and stallion tested.

Monsterpony Mon, 09/05/2011 - 15:22

It looks tobi to me. I have never seen a tobiano that didn't have at least a small sock on a hind foot. If the DNA types correctly, then I want to know who threw the tobi.

Songcatcher Sat, 09/10/2011 - 06:26

[quote=Threnody]My ability to be patient doesn't want to cooperate waiting for the results.[/quote]
I know exactly what you mean. In my experience, the lab does not get in any hurry when they PQ. I wish they were as fast as Animal Genetics.

rabbitsfizz Sat, 09/10/2011 - 06:53

Well, I went through all this last year with my Appy foal- I tested everyone who even looked at me twice, and since we are talking £40.00 a test it was costing me a small fortune- only to have the test come back with Carlos, the thought to be sire, as the actual sire. So now, when my bank book has recovered, I have to have Carlos tested for Lp!!

Threnody Sun, 09/11/2011 - 02:10

With the unexpected surprises from him, Carlos being tested for LP must happen! :grin:

And finding out who threw this tobi must happen as well. :bounce

Songcatcher Sat, 09/17/2011 - 07:51

[quote=TheSwingHorse]Ok, do we know yet? I'm like... losing sleep over this ish! hahaha[/quote]
They have sent in hair to PQ the foal. In my experience, that may take 6-8 weeks. Rest assured, I will update as soon as I know.

In order for the obviously Pinto stallion to be the sire, he would have had to jump TWO fences, done the deed while the other stallion was in the pasture, jumped the two fences to get back to his own pasture, all this with no sign of trauma. Either that or someone else playing a cruel trick on the owners while they were absent.

If it were me, I would have done the Tobi test on mare and stallion with Animal Genetics first. Much faster than waiting for the PQ.

Threnody Sat, 09/17/2011 - 13:32

I agree with you there Song, I'd have just done the tobi test.

Honestly I don't see a downside to any of the possible results we can get from this. We either:

[b]A)[/b] Have an example of how extremely minimal Tobiano can be, by being completely solid! Just need to find out who has it.

[b]B)[/b] Have proof that you can't always be sure of the parents without a gene test.

or [b]C)[/b] If there wasn't an accidental turn out in the wrong field we have the greatest Mission Impossible/Houdini mini stallion ever recorded. (Which would be pretty awesome if you ask me.)

With these options we can't lose.

And hang in there Swing. I'll be joining you on the sidelines for the long wait.

Daylene Alford Mon, 09/19/2011 - 07:16

Threnody, you left off an option!

[b]D):[/b] Discovery of a new mutation. The chances are remote but it is still a possibility!

Billygoatsgruff Mon, 09/19/2011 - 20:33

could the stallion/mare be chimeric and not display any visual appearance of it? I'm not entirely sure how "chimerism" works in horses (if it only shows up as brindle/obvious visible colour mutations) though. I mean if that would be possible pedigree wise, I havn't looked at them yet.

rabbitsfizz Tue, 09/20/2011 - 13:10

Well, in order for DC to have been the sire of my foal he would have had to have sent the mare an e-mail- he was in a stall all the time!
OTOH I had two foals born one year when the girl I hired to look after them while I was at a show thought it would be funny to let that stallion out with them- one mare was not mine and went home as "guaranteed not in foal" and the other one was a two year old who foaled, on her own, in the gelding field.
By sheer luck, both were OK.
So this is a real possibility...

TheSwingHorse Tue, 10/04/2011 - 22:16

Ok, do I have any of you on my FB page?? Cause if these results come back after I deliver my baby and I miss the results due to any god known reason and no one messages me to inform me, I'll have to murder someone...

rubberduckyyy Tue, 10/04/2011 - 22:31

Dangit!! I saw this on 'active forum topics' and thought the results were in! I was so excited I almost fell outta my chair! :rofl

Threnody Wed, 10/05/2011 - 00:17

[quote=Billygoatsgruff]could the stallion/mare be chimeric and not display any visual appearance of it? I'm not entirely sure how "chimerism" works in horses (if it only shows up as brindle/obvious visible colour mutations) though. I mean if that would be possible pedigree wise, I havn't looked at them yet.[/quote]

From what we've seen chimerism doesn't appear to affect white pattern formation. This is a brindle tobiano who is likely chimeric with his all over brindle appearance and different shades of color. http://www.equine.com/horses-for-sale/h…

Dunbar's Gold also has normal markings. http://www.dunbarsgold.com/aurie3.jpg

And I am way too trigger twitchy with this thread when it pops up! It's like waiting for a results show but with horse color genetics. :rofl

We need to figure out a contact tree for you Swing!