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LP and PATN

rubberduckyyy September 23, 2011 September 23, 2011

Forums

Ok, so today I thought it would be a good idea to finally do some research and try figure out LP genes and PATN. Annnd now i'm confused. I don't understand the difference between LP and PATN. I mean I understand they're different genes but I don't understand the different roles each of them play. Also, I don't understand how horses can have one and not the other, like LP but not PATN. Please help me before my brain explodes!! :ympray:

NZ Appaloosas Mon, 09/26/2011 - 02:32

[quote=rubberduckyyy]^:)^ THANK YOU!! That was really helpful!! Now I have a few more questions, haha.

What combo of PATN and LP makes a varnish roan appy? [/quote]

MP did a great job on expanding/clarifying my electricity/light bulb explanation.

A lot depends on which "varnish roan" is being talked about--the one such as MP discusses, or the one where an appy 'roans out'.

The first, as MP says, is pretty much Lp/? with a very weak/non-existent Patn gene(s)...that said, not all Lp-only carriers will roan out even slightly, for example a black-based app may never show any sign of roaning out since black appears to have serious suppression abilities on pattern expression (i.e., what might be an extended blanket in a chestnut could very well be a suppressed leopard in a black).

quote=rubberduckyyy]
And whats the black dilution thing in appys? Well i'm not sure if it's a dilution but it replaces the black pigment with red.[/quote]

The official term is "funkify"...or well, that's what I call it. It isn't a replacement of black pigment with red, it's a modification of the black so it looks bronzy. We currently have 2 that do that, mother/daughter team. Mother spent the majority of her life fooling everyone that she was black...genetic testing a few years ago showed she was bay. Her daughter was born jet black...and now she's got a black torso with bronze legs. I call her my "reverse bay" when she annoys me. LOL

Diane

NZ Appaloosas Mon, 09/26/2011 - 02:33

[quote=admin]That is an awesome analogy! Diane did you come up with that? Can I use it?[/quote]

Go for it, it's a variation of how Rebecca and Sheila explained it when they were here.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas Mon, 09/26/2011 - 02:37

[quote=Threnody]The pic you posed is of a varnish roan with 1 LP so the spots formed. Varnish Roan with 1 LP tend to get spots that don't varnish while Varnish Roans with 2 LP Varnish more completely.

LPlp varnish roan - http://www.designsporthorse.com/Horse%2…
LPLP varnish roan - http://www.wyantswintersprings.com/LPSA…]

Slight correction, Lp-only horses DO have the spots, just like their Lp/Patn counterparts, there's just no white to show off the spots until/unless varnishing takes place. My first app had spots that could only be seen in her winter coat since her winter coat came in a couple shades lighter-coloured than her summer coat, and she had big ole honkin' huge black spots.

Diane

rubberduckyyy Thu, 09/29/2011 - 15:46

So. I was just googling stuff about LP and PATN on my quest for knowledge, and I came across a site that apparently has been working with the people with The Appaloosa Project and this is what I found: Appaloosa dark spots are caused by the dominant Sd^S allele, Appaloosa white spots may be caused by the dominant Sn^S allele and Appaloosa varnish is caused by the semi-dominant Sv^S allele.

What!? Just when I thought I had this all figured out!?!? ~x(

rubberduckyyy Thu, 09/29/2011 - 17:47

Yeah I thought it definietely sounded weird. And that just reminded me of another question I had. So if Lp only causes varnish roan, and Lp only causes "characteristic-only" appaloosas... then Lp only causes both of those phenotypes?

Threnody Thu, 09/29/2011 - 18:40

Characteristics only and varnish roan are the same thing genetically. The 4 characteristics caused by LP are

-varnish roaning
-striped hooves
-mottled skin
-white eye sclera

Not all horses with LP express all 4 characteristics. For instance you might have an appy with striped hooves, white sclera and no mottled skin. And in some very suppressed horses they might look like any other non LP horse for a long time and develop characteristics later. Hope that explained it!

rabbitsfizz Fri, 09/30/2011 - 12:13

So what will my friend's filly be
Solid bay, no mottling yet (she is a weanling) very visible big black spots coming in on her rump- she only clipped a strip, just to show the spots up. No white.??

Threnody Fri, 09/30/2011 - 21:51

Black based females with only one copy of LP take the longest to show characteristics. She sounds like a heterozygous LP varnish roan. The roaning will happen in time. ^_^

Threnody Fri, 09/30/2011 - 22:53

Sadly no idea. It's supposed to have been out from what I've heard. A lab in Germany I think has been offering a marker test for LP when they aren't supposed to and I believe there is a dispute over that. I don't know the whole story or how accurate what I just typed is.

CMhorses Sat, 10/01/2011 - 04:53

[quote=Threnody]
Not all horses with LP express all 4 characteristics. For instance you might have an appy with striped hooves, white sclera and no mottled skin. And in some very suppressed horses they might look like any other non LP horse for a long time and develop characteristics later. Hope that explained it![/quote]
Yep, my cousins black silver mini was like that. We got him as a weanling and were told he was an appaloosa, he was completely solid with striped hooves and white sclera. He was probably 5 or so before any white ever showed and he just grows more every year, but so far its just on his back/butt and face and starting to creep down his sides.

rubberduckyyy Sat, 10/01/2011 - 18:03

I read somewhere that minis have totally skewed appy color patterns compared to horses. Is that true? And if it is, why?

Threnody Sat, 10/01/2011 - 21:39

It's true. It's assumed because of minis being a different sized 'canvas' for color genes in general to work with. They tend to have more suppressed LP than other horses but it isn't understood why at the moment. Meanwhile mules tend to have insanely loud LP expression by normal comparison.

Daylene Alford Sat, 10/01/2011 - 21:45

Mini's seem to have alot of suppression with white patterns in general. Have you ever seen a tobiano in a big horse express with even one solid foot? In mini's it may not be common but it's not terribly uncommon either. The same goes for frame.

Threnody Sat, 10/01/2011 - 21:57

I love the sheer amount of 'solid pinto' examples in minis. I'm still waiting on the tobiano foal and it's solid parents. Really want to see the results >.< I'm personally hoping on of the parents is a phenotypic solid genotypic tobiano.

NZ Appaloosas Mon, 10/17/2011 - 20:10

[quote=rabbitsfizz]So what will my friend's filly be
Solid bay, no mottling yet (she is a weanling) very visible big black spots coming in on her rump- she only clipped a strip, just to show the spots up. No white.??[/quote]

Related to my first app??? LOL It could be that, as she gets older, the coat will start to varnish out, and the spots become visible. But personally, until we get an answer as to why/how some apps 'roan out' faster than others, I don't think we're gonna know much about horses like your friend's filly and my first app.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas Mon, 10/17/2011 - 20:43

Yeah, cuz otherwise you'd be bald from pulling your hair out!! :rofl

But Ms Pearl is why I think that there is a separate suppressor gene, probably closely located to the "E" version rather than just a function than "E" itself...there's no rhyme or reason to suppression...

Diane