The Colors of Life

You are here

Just when I thought I had it straight...

22 posts / 0 new
Last post
Andrea
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 11 months ago
Joined: 03/09/09
Just when I thought I had it straight...
Is this information correct? I'm getting confused with "hetrozygous red". Aren't all chestnuts hetrozygous? The percentages seem off to me. "Horsesmiths Farm (http://www.horsesmithsfarm.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) stands a double dilute stallion, Whiteys Bar. Curious as to what color your foal will be when crossing your chestnut, bay, or black mare to Why? The most common color matches are listed below. If you would like more information, following is an explanation to the genetic phenonenom that occurs when sorrels, bays, and blacks are bred to cremellos (color genetic information from Dr. Sponenberg's book 'Equine Color Genetics'). Foals from red, bay or black mares will be palomino, buckskin or smokey black when crossed with Why. He is heterozygous for the Red Factor test and for the Agouti test he is negative. This makes him a heterozygous, black based horse, a Smoky Cream. AQHA will still show him as a Perlino, a bay based horse as they don't have smoky cream as a recognized color yet. When bred to a heterozygous red mare the possibilities are approximately 50% palomino, 25% buckskin and 25% smoky black. When bred to a heterozygous bay mare the possibilities are approximately 65% buckskin, 22% smoky black and 13% palomino. When bred to a heterozygous black mare the possibilities are approximately 88% smoky black and 12% palomino. Why can never produce a red colored foal. Your foal will never be bay when breeding to Whitey's Bar."
Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Ummm...not sure exactly where they are getting those numbers from. The stallion is a smokey creme and is Ee aa CcrCcr according to their test results. The Ee is what they mean by heterozygous red (h/z for red is the same thing as h/z for black since both mean Ee).

The heterozygous (h/z) red versus h/z bay or h/z black makes no sense though. A horse can't be h/z for red and be a red mare as by definition she would be black-based since h/z for red means Ee. I think they have there extension and agouti genes confused.

An ee Aa (H/Z red, h/z agouti) mare would have 50% palomino, 25% buckskin and 25% smoky black.
An Ee Aa (h/z red and agouti) mare would have 25% palomino, 37.5% buckskin and 37.5% smoky black.
An Ee aa (h/z red and H/Z non-agouti) mare would have 25% palomino and 75% smoky black.

Edit to add:
h/z= heterozygous
H/Z= homozygous

.

nerd
nerd's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 7 months ago
Joined: 03/10/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

I agree with MP that those numbers are BS. Maybe they refer to what the stud has actually gotten, rather than what he has the potential of getting???

Andrea
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 11 months ago
Joined: 03/09/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Thought something was a little off. I couldn't wrap my mind around what a hetrozygous chestnut was. Duh. It's hetrozygous black. :roll:
I was thinking a ee would be homozygous red as it would always pass a "e". I wasn't thinking homo or hetro had to do with what color the foals actually turned out to be. Makes more sense now.
Thanks!

Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

The more I think about it, the more I think that it is likely that the heterozygous is not suppose to be there when talking about the mares and they used a color calculator for the numbers. If you didn't know whether a red mare was AA, Aa or aa and set each of them as being equally likely in a color calculator, I bet you would get numbers similar to those. The same if you didn't know what a bay mare (E? A?) or a black mare (E? aa) was and you weighted everything equally. My guess is that these people don't have a complete grasp of what genetics terms actually mean and are just putting words where they think that they belong.

.

Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Yeah, I was right in where they got their numbers from. If you put smokey cream (Ee aa) as the sire and the dam by their phenotype with agouti and extension as unknowns, then this color calculator spits out the percentages they list.
http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

Paintlover
Paintlover's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 8 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Yep, I agree with you guys. I thought those numbers where a little hokey until I realized it was an approximate percentage based on not knowing whether the mares were Aa, AA, Ee, or EE.

Heidi
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 6 months ago
Joined: 03/29/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Your foal will never be bay when breeding to Whitey's Bar.

I beg to differ on this point. My black-based foal will *certainly* be bay if my mare (bred to Whitey) is AA.

Andrea
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 11 months ago
Joined: 03/09/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

I was thinking that as well Heidi, but technically it would be buckskin since the stallion is DD.

Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...
Your foal will never be bay when breeding to Whitey's Bar.

I beg to differ on this point. My black-based foal will *certainly* be bay if my mare (bred to Whitey) is AA.

Yes, they could be bay-based, but he can't produce a bay phenotype.

.

Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

The problem with them using the calculator is that they assume that there is an equal chance that the horse has each possible set of alleles. I believe it is in TBs that the majority of them are Aa or AA so assuming that there is an equal chance of a chestnut TB mare being aa as AA is statistically inaccurate. If a bay mare comes from a long, long line of nothing but bays, then it would be more likely for her to be AA instead of Aa than a mare that comes from a line of mostly blacks with only a couple individuals that have bay in them. The only way to get marginally accurate percentages is to individually look at each horses pedigree to come up with the likelihood of what genotype they would have.

.

RiddleMeThis
RiddleMeThis's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
Joined: 03/08/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Yes, they could be bay-based, but he can't produce a bay phenotype.

Well....even that is SLIGHTLY incorrect...

IMAGE(http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Bonk%20june07%20(27)az.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Bonk%20june07%20(4)a.jpg)

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

Andrea
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 11 months ago
Joined: 03/09/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Is that a buckskin RMT?

RiddleMeThis
RiddleMeThis's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
Joined: 03/08/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Is that a buckskin RMT?

Yes that is :bounce

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

dakotakdq
dakotakdq's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 3 months ago
Joined: 03/11/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

wow RMT certainly dosent look buckskin, just goes to show how different they can be :) how unusual!

[color=#800080][b]http://lenzoperformancehorses.webs.com/[/b][/color]
[color=#0000FF][url]http://www.freewebs.com/etongrove[/url] [/color]
Eton Grove Stud is the is home of:
Amaroo Forgotton Hero (QH) & Lazy D Rocks Golddigger (QH/ASH)

Andrea
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 11 months ago
Joined: 03/09/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

LOL... I guess you're right then. Do you have baby pictures of him?

RiddleMeThis
RiddleMeThis's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
Joined: 03/08/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

LOL... I guess you're right then. Do you have baby pictures of him?

He is a her ;) lol but yes here are some baby pictures of her, where she does look more buckskin.

IMAGE(http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/faithfilly13a.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/bnka.jpg)

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

Sara
Sara's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Is she related to that German stallion... arrg I forgot his name... they call him Yeager I think?

[url=http://www.myrewyn.com/]Myrewyn Equestrian[/url]

[url=http://myrewyn.com/sales/]New! Updated sales list.[/url]

RiddleMeThis
RiddleMeThis's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
Joined: 03/08/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Is she related to that German stallion... arrg I forgot his name... they call him Yeager I think?

Her sire is a half brother to Yeager through his sire.

Her sire is Mirabeau whos sire is Mascarpone who is also Yeagers sire.

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

Sara
Sara's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

The family resemblance is especially apparent in the trotting photo. :)

[url=http://www.myrewyn.com/]Myrewyn Equestrian[/url]

[url=http://myrewyn.com/sales/]New! Updated sales list.[/url]

Heidi
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 6 months ago
Joined: 03/29/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

I was thinking that as well Heidi, but technically it would be buckskin since the stallion is DD.

Thanks, I guess I'd be better off if I read and assimilated all of the info before shooting off my mouth! :lol:

TwinCreeksFarm
TwinCreeksFarm's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 4 weeks ago
Joined: 02/14/09
Re: Just when I thought I had it straight...

Oooh, that filly is Cisco's half sister. :D

pandemonium