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How to explain this unusual result....?

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Lantokay
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How to explain this unusual result....?

Getting on for 10 years ago, someone I know had an accidental mating between two of her dogs.

The sire was a purebred Golden retriever from a very good, top show line in the UK.
The dam was a pure-bred show-line Belgian Malinois, again from the UK's best lines.

Nine (I think) puppies were born - 5 black.... and 4 brindle!

I've struggled to try and work out how the brindle came about now we know more about the K gene but I've not got very far!

Anyone got any ideas? the litter was well documented and photographs are on her website. Oh and there was NO chance the dam was mated by another dog as the GR was the only entire male she had at the time, and furthermore was caught in flagrante delicto.

Just out of interest, I remember meeting a very handsome male Border collie-cross about 30 years ago, apparently from a Flatcoat Retriever x Border Collie breeding, and he was brindle and white. His father was a purebred black Flatcoat (I met him), I'm not sure about his dam but I fairly certain she was the usual black & white border collie - other colours were very rarely seen in the UK at that time and have only become popular since then.

How does the K gene (I'm thinking of k(br) obviously) work in these instances? Is it possible for some breeds to carry it and never see it make an appearance in pure-bred litters?

cheers,
Sue

Daylene Alford
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If the dog is ee then the K

If the dog is ee then the K gene doesn't show. So, both the KB and kbr must have came from the retriever, while the Belgian Malinois supplied the E to allow K to express. Do you have the link to her website? I'd love to see the pictures.

With the Flatcoat Retriever x Border Collie things are a bit more complex. Border Collies can be brindle so the dam was probably a brindle carrier. I did a bit of searching and Flatcoat Retrieves can be heterozygous for E (red pups are occasionally born) so I suppose they could be heterozygous for KB as well. If the Flatcoat Retriever sire was heterozygous for KB then the pup could be brindle.

Lantokay
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Thanks - I knew it would make

Thanks - I knew it would make sense, somehow but I was having trouble with that one!

Here's the website of the "Maligolds" as they were nicknamed:
http://www.goldmali.co.uk/maligold1.html
(Warning - the site is one of those that has annoying music which you might want to mute!)

With regard to the BC cross - yes you *can* get brindle BCs but not in the UK gene pool, particularly not in working farm stock which I think she was - she was an agility dog so probably ISDS registered. I would also think some dog was K and one kk or the brindle couldn't have had a chance to express.

Going back to the GR x Malinois mating, I did notice one was a much lighter brindle than the others. I was reading today about the investigation into cream done by Dr Schmutz, and she found that there are unknown diluting/lightening genes that can affect the shade of cream in ee dogs (and of phaeomelanin in other phenotypes). One of her earlier studies was to look at the "grey" phenotype of Belgian Shepherds (which is a cream shade in reality, and seems to be recessive).

I have a feeling that the Malinois dam of the Maligold litter was found to be a carrier of this (now very rare) dilution, so it would seem possibly that whatever the gene is, it may be compatible with a similar diluting/paling gene in Golden Retrievers...

Sue in England, UK
with Belgian Shepherds and a lifetime of small animal colour genetics.

Daylene Alford
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Quote:With regard to the BC

With regard to the BC cross - yes you *can* get brindle BCs but not in the UK gene pool, particularly not in working farm stock which I think she was - she was an agility dog so probably ISDS registered. I would also think some dog was K and one kk or the brindle couldn't have had a chance to express.

I suppose it's possible that the flatcoat retriever was the brindle carrier. If they had any golden retriever breeding (or common ancestry) way back in the day it could easily hide out and we just demonstrated that Goldens can carry brindle :bounce.

I have a feeling that the Malinois dam of the Maligold litter was found to be a carrier of this (now very rare) dilution, so it would seem possibly that whatever the gene is, it may be compatible with a similar diluting/paling gene in Golden Retrievers...

This is very possible. They are quite possibly even the same mutation since the cream dilution seems to only affect red coat colors.

Lantokay
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Quote:I suppose it's possible

I suppose it's possible that the flatcoat retriever was the brindle carrier. If they had any golden retriever breeding (or common ancestry) way back in the day it could easily hide out and we just demonstrated that Goldens can carry brindle

Just had a look into the history of both Flatcoat and Golden Retrievers. It appears the Golden was a later creation and had quite a bit of Wavy-Coated retriever (as the Flatcoats were then known) input. So that could explain that!

Head's telling me probably not, but could the Brindle in the Malinois mating have come from the Malinois? I remember when the mating ocurred, BSD people were attributing the brindle to a 'throwback' from the Dutch Shepherd which has common origins to Malinois, and may have been intermixed following WW2 when the breed had become scarce. However, when this litter was born, knowledge of the K gene and brindle inheritance hadn't been investigated!

Sue in England, UK
with Belgian Shepherds and a lifetime of small animal colour genetics.

Daylene Alford
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Quote:Brindle in the Malinois

Brindle in the Malinois mating have come from the Malinois?

No, KB and kbr are both dominant to ky (not black or brindle).

pandemonium