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Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

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Monsterpony
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Have Marwari/Kathiawari and Timor ponies been proven to have it or just by phenotype? I had thought that the gene originated in the Americas.

.

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Hmmm... good point. Where did the North American Indian ponies come from originally?

European settlers...take your pick. You have the Spanish with their settlement of Central/lower-and-western North America, Russians up Canada way, English, Dutch, German, French and too many others to list settling in what would become the Northeastern US. Remember, the Native Americans had an extensive trading system in place, and what might be considered 'dog tucker' quality in a European (and thus heavily 'horsed) settled area, would be considered an extremely rare and unusual commodity worth entire towns, farther away, to a people who had never seen such an animal.

So between lost animals, cast-off animals and stolen animals, it isn't strange that horses popped up all over the place. And for that reference in that website, regarding the natives' riding ability, we all know that riding without stirrups/reins improves seat and balance, and well, how many lost, cast-off or stolen horses would have been wearing full tack?

Diane

accphotography
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

I've just been looking for examples and can't find one. I see obviously tobiano and sabino... and LOUD splash, but no apparent frame in the examples I saw.

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Dogrose
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Looked through some pics of Marwari and Timors but didn't find anything that looked like frame, they looked like tobi and splash to me.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

CMhorses
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Are Marwari and Kathiawari the same?
I did this list mostly at 4am and by googleing pictures so I am sure there are a few that are off.

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accphotography
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

They are very, very similar. They are probably essentially the same but supposedly the main difference is that they come from different areas of India.

This is from Wiki, but obviously we know at least one of these is blatantly wrong:

"Roan, champagne, frame overo, splashed white, and the Leopard spotting pattern are not found in the breed."

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Daylene Alford
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Just curious do Icelanics have frame?

lipigirl
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

I am pretty sure I have seen one with Frame yes.

CMhorses
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

So which breeds need to be added or removed?

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Dogrose
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

I thought Icelandics were just tobi and splash?

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

accphotography
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

No, Icelandics do not have frame.

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lipigirl
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

That's really strange, my friend was looking to buy an Icey who had a near apron face falling off one side so only covering one eye and no body/leg white and 2 blue eyes - chestnut !!! If I can get pics I will, did not look like Splash to me and had a slight moustache too !

lipigirl
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Ok got permission to post this guy a newly gelded registered Icey -

IMAGE(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Lipigirl/equine%20color/untitled.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Lipigirl/equine%20color/n645830634_5828976_9786.jpg)

He has 2 blue eyes' eyeliner and a small moustache but no body/leg white - looks very Frame to me.

CMhorses
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

The face is splashy but no leg white with that much face white...hmmm...

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Dogrose
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

He looks like he has leg white on all four to me- its just a bit grubby so blends in with the body colour, you can see the tops of the white on the back legs in the second pic and the right front too in the first pic.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

lipigirl
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Optical illlusion - no leg white sorry !

accphotography
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

That face just looks splash to me. *shrugs* I've looked at a ton of Iceys over the past two years and never found one that looked in any way like a normal frame. I guess it's possible, but I'm pretty sure it's not there. The researchers even said they didn't carry frame after the test was out if I remember the article correctly.

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rabbitsfizz
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

No Frame in Icelandics, no Sabino, either.
No Frame or Sabino (not 100% sure of Sabino but I shall accept it for the moment) in Proper Shetlands.
I am not convinced of Frame in Kathiawari/Marwari horses but I would be happy to be proven wrong as it would indicate where the pattern came from...the "curly eared" breeds are traditionally believed to have been bred from Arabs...the pattern obviously then dying out in the original, desert Arabs.
Timor ponies came from whence?? Not European settlers, although there has obviously been an attempt to "upgrade" the animals (isn't there always??)
No Frame in Welsh.
I have a feeling Frame came form the "hot blooded" animals, not of the European native animals,that I would consider to be "cold blooded" have it.
Could have come into TBs through the Arab influence then died out in desert Arabs??
Of course anything that was not European was "arab" as far as the TB breeders were concerned, so it is hard to know for sure what exactly went into making the original TB.
Which is one of the reasons I find it hard to care about fence jumpers in TBs....so long as it can run very fast in a fairly straight line, and win races, it is a racehorse, as far as I am concerned.
The Mini is not, strictly speaking, a breed,it has no breed type and Shetlands (AM and UK), Falabellas and , basically anything under 34", can still be registered, so that makes a "type" as far as I am concerned, not a Breed.
Anything els?e? :sign

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Maigray
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

I was always under the impression Frame was a mutation which occurred in the Americas after colonization because it does not seem to occur on other continents unless the breed has been crossbred. It doesn't occur in any native European or Asian breeds, does it? Icelandics have been cut off for a thousand years and no imports are allowed.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

We are not sure about the Kathiawari, as I said, and no-one has ever been sure about the desert Arabs, from which the Kathiawari/Marwari are reputedly bred.

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ColorfulChincoteague
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

*coming out of lurk* I have yet to confirm frame in Chincoteagues. It wouldn't surprise me if it was there at some point in the past, but I don't have photographic evidence of it.

The Colorful Chincoteague: http://chincoteaguepony.hostingrapid.com
Misty's Heaven: http://www.mistysheaven.com

lipigirl
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Welcome Colorful !!! Thanks for coming out of the lurks to comment - we need more people to do that we love imput and other opinions !

Please post some more about yourself, do you own a Chincoteague???

ColorfulChincoteague
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Welcome Colorful !!! Thanks for coming out of the lurks to comment - we need more people to do that we love imput and other opinions !

Please post some more about yourself, do you own a Chincoteague???

Thanks! :) No I don't own one, just an enthusiast (or obsessed :lol:) but I hope to own a Misty family one day. The two Chincoteague websites I run are in my sig, Misty's Heaven is the website for Misty and family, and The Colorful Chincoteague documents the colors in the Chincoteague. I decided to take it upon myself a few years ago to document their colors since it hadn't been done before and I wanted to know what was really in the breed. There's a lot of misinformation out there and testing is almost unheard of. I've been meaning to share pictures with y'all but have yet to get around to it, hate it when life gets in the way! :) I have tons of pictures from multiple trips to Pony Penning.

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Misty's Heaven: http://www.mistysheaven.com

lipigirl
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Fantastic - we look forward to the piccies !! :bounce

accphotography
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

I have always liked your site Colorful. One of the most accurate sites out there IMO.

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critterkeeper
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

Hey, Colorful, long time no hear.... :flower

Question: Do you include the other barrier island ponies outside of Virginia/Maryland (the Outer Banks of both Carolinas -Shackleford Bank, Ocracoke, etc.; or Cumberland Island in Ga.) on your sites? I know there has been a great deal of speculation for decades about the relationship between all the "island" ponies... :roll: ?

What about the feral ponies at Mount Rogers NRA? (I know they aren't "island" ponies, but ...they are adorable ponies). :love

Kylene "A dog has lots of friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue." ~ Anonymous

ColorfulChincoteague
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

I have always liked your site Colorful. One of the most accurate sites out there IMO.

Thank you ACC! I try my best to keep it accurate.

Hey, Colorful, long time no hear.... :flower

Question: Do you include the other barrier island ponies outside of Virginia/Maryland (the Outer Banks of both Carolinas -Shackleford Bank, Ocracoke, etc.; or Cumberland Island in Ga.) on your sites? I know there has been a great deal of speculation for decades about the relationship between all the "island" ponies... :roll: ?

What about the feral ponies at Mount Rogers NRA? (I know they aren't "island" ponies, but ...they are adorable ponies). :love

Hello! No not at this time, and mainly because I'm not very familiar with them. I know the wild Chincoteague herds pretty well :love Though I'd love to be able to travel around and research the other breeds if I could. :mrgreen: I think their origins are probably very similar. Old photos of ponies from the late 1800s show them looking similar to the Banker breeds. Chincoteagues have probably had more intentional human meddling with their gene pool. Shetland, Mustang, Arabian (at least twice, most recently as 1996), and other breeds have all been purposely introduced. I do remember reading somewhere than an Andausian was introduced into the Ocracoke ponies, which explains why grey is in that breed and not in others.

I'd like to become more familiar with the Maryland Assateague Ponies as they have not had quite as much meddling more recently, despite the state line "fence jumpers". I suspect dark headed roan might still exist in Maryland. The last wild Virginia roans died a couple years ago, unless there's a domestic one out there somewhere.

The Colorful Chincoteague: http://chincoteaguepony.hostingrapid.com
Misty's Heaven: http://www.mistysheaven.com

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

With the exception of the fact that Pinto has never been allowed, that sounds an awful lot like the New Forest Pony origins!!!
Quite a sound pony until people started "improving" (read 'making it bigger') it with TB/Arab....you name it!!

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CMhorses
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

So what breeds need to be added/removed? Also a bit OT but I know someone said something about some people that saved a LWO foal.

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lipigirl
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Re: Horse/Pony breeds with Frame

So what breeds need to be added/removed? Also a bit OT but I know someone said something about some people that saved a LWO foal.

....how on earth did they do that??????????...please share. :shock: :?

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