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A grulla mom and her kids

We have a grulla Lewitzer mare --- and here are her foals with the corresponding fathers. That´s mama Sally: [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/sally_1_b.jpg[/img] Her eldest daughter Siena from the smoky black riding pony stallion FS Pontiac [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_ancestors/fs%20pontiac_b.jpg[/img]: [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/whynot%20siena_17_b.jpg[/img] [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/whynot%20siena_18_b.jpg[/img] Her second foal is the stallion Pares - from the bay tobiano Lewitzer Percy [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_ancestors/percy%201_s.jpg[/img]: [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/pares_29_b.jpg[/img] [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/pares_30_b.jpg[/img] Her 3rd foal is our yearling WhyNot Soraya --- from the black tobiano Lewitzer Spirit [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_ancestors/spirit_s.jpg[/img]: [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/whynot%20soraya%2011_b.jpg[/img] [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/baby-kl.jpg[/img] Siena seems smoky black with slight dun markings around the nose, but we can only say for sure when she is tested. Pares seems plain chestnut tobiano. And for Soraya -- we thought she´ll be plain chestnut, but now she´s developing a lighter mane ...... i think DNA or time will tell. But what the heck have we combine Sally to, to get something like herself?????????

rabbitsfizz Tue, 07/28/2009 - 03:00

Neither of those stallions is "pure" Tobiano, they have another pattern.
They may well be Tobiano [i]base[/i]but they appear to have Splash, and maybe Sabino ( there usually is Sabino)as well.
The mare is a fairly typical Black Dun in that size horse, once you get down into Minis of course, the colour appears to change...what doesn't??
Whynot, I really have to get you interested in Minis......
Now I have a couple of nice fillies and the transport can be arranged :rofl :rofl :rofl

WhyNot-Ponys Tue, 07/28/2009 - 05:24

Thats something for a friend of mine -- she´s in shetland, mini and partbred shetlands -- have a look at her HP -- http://www.gestuet-simssee.de" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:lol:

How dependable are the dun-tests by now? I want to test Siena if she has dun ----- but wouldn´t she look like her mother if she had it or would creme interfere?

The bay stallion Percy ist tested homozygous for tobiano

critterkeeper Tue, 07/28/2009 - 07:04

Okay, first dun and cream do interact and cause the body coat to be lighter while the points stay dark. Cream can hide on a black coat, but not on a red or diluted coat (dun, champaign, bay, etc.)

You filly Siena may be smokey black (DNA will tell) but I don't see dun at all. You can test, but I don't think the test is as accurate as I once did (see ladies I am still learning :laugh1 ).

As for Soraya, there is no mystery there. She is a chestnut with flaxen-... i.e. sorrel in US parlance. Very typical of that "shade" of chestnut.

Pares is definitely chestnut with tobiano, but also like RF, I agree on the splash and possible sabino. Tobiano does not put white on a face - it likes to keep faces solid. Splash and sabino on the other hand, are notrious for putting white on faces (blazes, stars, strips, etc.).

Fledgesflight Tue, 07/28/2009 - 18:23

[quote="Fledgesflight"]A homozygous Black plus homozygous Dun stallion that is hetrozygous for Agouti. (will yeild 100% Black Dun foals from this cross)[/quote]

rabbitsfizz Wed, 07/29/2009 - 06:20

Testing H/Z for Tobi just means the horse will pass on Tobi all the time, not that it does not have any other patterns on it, BTW

Daylene Alford Wed, 07/29/2009 - 06:59

[quote]A homozygous Black plus homozygous Dun stallion that is hetrozygous for Agouti. (will yeild 100% Black Dun foals from this cross)[/quote]

I think you mean negative for agouti. Heterozygous for Agouti will give 50% bay dun foals.

WhyNot-Ponys Wed, 07/29/2009 - 11:45

@rabbitsfizz

In this case it excludes all other pattern --- in theory with Lewitzer breeding they aren´t allowed --- the race is a very young one and alle the founding sires and mares were selected for tobiano and tobiano only (and as tests were available the breeding stallions were tested, too). The only pattern you get additional to tobiano is sabino - no frame, no overo ........

tjuri Wed, 07/29/2009 - 13:16

The problem with the Lewitzer is: They excluded patterns from the breeding standard they can’t test for hence you can’t disprove it– I am pretty sure there are many Splash carriers in this breed:
http://www.westernportal.de/images/lewi…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.reitsportforum.de/showthread…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Splash and Sabino are fighting on this face IMO:
http://slawik.com/gallery2/main/php/mod…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The colt Ajax:
http://www.lewitz-schecken.net/lewitzer…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a side-note: Overo is an obsolete term used only in the USA... this term jumbles Frame, Splash and Sabino into one bucket. ;)

Daylene Alford Wed, 07/29/2009 - 13:24

Is there a website that talks about the Lewitzer in English? I've never heard of the breed before and would like to learn more.

Thanks

Fledgesflight Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:09

[quote="admin"][quote]A homozygous Black plus homozygous Dun stallion that is hetrozygous for Agouti. (will yeild 100% Black Dun foals from this cross)[/quote]

I think you mean negative for agouti. Heterozygous for Agouti will give 50% bay dun foals.[/quote]

Yep tired. I wanted to say [i]Homozygous recessive[/i] for Agouti but couldn't think of it due to lack of sleep. Thank you for pointing it out:)

WhyNot-Ponys Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:37

We have a homozygous Lewitzer prime mare who doesn´t exactly fit the tobiano rule -- that´s why I emphasized the "in theory".
[img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/Scarl…]
I look for a better pic of her --- she is bred on both side from the warmblood stallion Samber. Next year we cover her with Samenco B and hope for a homozygous foal.

Lewitzer are often used for carriages - 2 or 4 - and in competitions it´s desirable that the horses are more uniformely colored --- the little bit more extravagant are often not used.

Lewitzer is a german breed - they were founded1971 in East-Germany as dependable undemanding horses for ploughing small field-partitions, as driving ponies and of course as rides for the children. 7 ponies were bought in the area of Teterow and brought to stud Lewitz (VEG Lewitz) where especially the kids were mightily taken with the coloured ponies. Because of this the breed was aligned on the colour of the horses.
Riding pony stallions, one Welsh stallion and arabian stallions were used to gain some size and add blood and more spirit to the new founded race. The warmblood stallion Samber is (as far as I know) the only warmblood used.

The population now is stabile and 2005 the studbook was closed and only pure blooded Lewitzer are allowed in the breeding programm. The breeding goal is a coloured riding pony for competition and for all of the family. Lewitzer are great for show jumping and driving and you´ll see them more often at dressage competitions these days.

Monsterpony Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:45

They may all be tobiano, but if they have white on their faces, then they are not solely tobiano. Almost all that I have looked at show sabino, splash or both.

rabbitsfizz Thu, 07/30/2009 - 04:02

Sorry, Whynot that makes NO sense genetically.
That stallion is NOT "tobiano" he is Tobiano [i]base[/i] and he quite obviously has another pattern, as do all the others.
Splash also quite obviously exists in the "breed" as does Sabino and since LWO is the only one of those that you can test for there is NO way of stating (and I know this is the breed registry, not you personally) that there is no Splash, Frame is not likely in European horses unless there have been US imports??
This is nuts, it's like AQHA's reaction to finding they actually did have Appies and Pintos in the breed after all!!
The stallion has other patterns, fact, I am afraid.
Overo, which I loathe as a term, encompasses Sabino, but has no place as a term in European horses.
OK getting off soapbox now, rant over, it's safe to come out.....

tjuri Thu, 07/30/2009 - 06:23

I found a pdf-document online released by the Lewitzer organisation - unfortunately it is in German but I post it anyway since maybe some can read it:
http://www.lewitzer-mv.de/documents/Art…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The main facts are: They got 34 Lewitzer horses tested with the KM1-Test for Tobiano, 9 of them tested KM0/KM0.
Now the organisation draws the conclusion that there must be another unknown Tobiano-allel beside the KM1-allel.
It seems to me they purposefully ignore the fact that there are other white patterns in the breed besides Tobiano. Reminds me to the AQHA politics... So, Why-Not Ponies has a hard time in front of her I suppose!

Interesting fact is: The tests were supervised by Tosso Leeb, he did the Dominant White testing too. I can't imagine the conclusion in this publication has been made with his approval.

WhyNot-Ponys Thu, 07/30/2009 - 07:06

@rabbitsfizz

(looking carefully up from under the table and watch the stormclouds) thats why I wrote "in theory" - the stallion is tested homozygous for tobiano --- what other pattern her carries ................
No US-horse in the breeding base of Lewitzer, so you can cancel any influence of those.
Sabino is frequent in Welsh and a Welsh stallion was one active founding sire as well as you find sabino in several GRPs and Arabians who were used in the Lewitzer program.
Samber and his son Samenco B (still actively) were used --- that´s for the warmblood influence.

End of the week Mr. Leeb is back from vacations --- I can ask him about it.

And tjuri ---------- hard times come easy -- everytime you have breeding organizations behind a publication they seem to find it necessary to set their believe in stone ........... and you need to have very very good evidence (and be backuped by influential friends) to tell them otherwise ............

tjuri Thu, 07/30/2009 - 10:45

Good luck with your breeding organisation! ;)

If you happen to talk to Tasso Leeb, let us know which white patterns he thinks are involved in this breed! That might be interesting! 8-) ;)

rabbitsfizz Fri, 07/31/2009 - 10:17

I have never actually seen a Sabino Welsh that did not also have Splash, so your Tobianos all have multiple patterns.
I am gals we can rule out Frame, we do not really need that complication in view of just how totally ignorant Europeans are on pattern (it shames me, feel my shame!!)
I have to ask....why are these animals being bred????
I mean, it is not as if we are short of pony breeds...is there a purpose in mind or is it another person jumping on the "rare" band wagon.
Or are they just a breed I have never heard of before and that has been around for years???

WhyNot-Ponys Fri, 07/31/2009 - 11:14

The last --- they are around since 1971 ---- a page before I gave a brief history on the Lewitzer breed --- if I have a little bit time, I translate the whole race description for you.