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Fresh Kittens! And a kitten color question

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One of my barn cats had her kittens this morning..I checked them over when I found them (in the back of my gator no less..so we moved them to her "nest" she has been making and she was content with keeping them there) to make sure they were healthy. They are cute...the whole litter is black, white and shades of grey! LOL The "twins" of the litter are darling, I've never had kittens this color of tabby before and was wondering if anyone knew what color I can call them...LOL. So..five kittens in all. But first, the rest of the litter, with several pics of the "twins" at the end. [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1120616.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1120613.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1120619.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1120620.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1120634.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1120628.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1120632.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1120631.jpg[/img] Hopefully they'll be great mousers like their parents. Our only tom has really been earning his keep here lately....he's taken down a couple of rats out in my horse barn!!! Oh...and pics of mom and pop (I haven't seen any other toms around at all...which is unusual...and I have seen my tom up in the hay mow with the girls quite often)...not to say there might not be another "poppa"...but just looking at the kits, I doubt it. Momma [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1110853-1.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1110883-1.jpg[/img] Assumed Poppa [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1110869-1.jpg[/img] [img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Ponybeads/P1110865.jpg[/img]

TheRedHayflinger Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:36

that first kitten, I just noticed a bit ago looking at pics again, has the same grey smudge across the nose that momma has...lol

The excessive white ones are always a favorite of mine. Several years ago we had one that was a dilute calico...just a bit of blue and peach on the ears and tail and one body spot and that was it...she was just darling.

We have another one due soon too, she is a calico tabby...pretty sure poppa is the same male. Hopefully this will knock our rodent population back down...the last few years we've only had 4-5 cats and the mice and rats have been out of control (and that is with my pomeranian and my australian shepherd helping..the pom gets mice and the aussie kills rats). My mom said if we didn't have kittens born here this year, she was gonna go collect up about 10 cats from people that didn't want any..LOL. But that's what you get when you are surrounded by wooded areas and corn and soybean fields!

Heidi Fri, 05/07/2010 - 20:50

The babies are beautiful!

Here are their genetics...
Mamma and Pappa are both black-based. Mamma has agouti which causes her tabby pattern (broken-striped Mackerel) to express. Because the Pappa is solid, he has no agouti genes. Because their litter includes solid colors, Mamma is heterozygous for agouti (Aa). Mamma has moderate and Pappa has minimal white spotting. The kitties with the most white probably got a white spotting gene from each parent and that increased their amount of white spotting. The tabbies with minimal white (toes only?) probably only got one WS gene, this would mean that at least one parent, possibly both, may have only one WS gene each. Mamma could possibly have two with her moderate amount of spotting.

One of the tabby kittens ([i]the first pic of a held kitten[/i]) may have the "classic" tabby markings. Classic looks like a target on the side. It is possible that is the Pappa's tabby pattern but w/out agouti it can't visibly express on his coat or he is het in his tabby pattern.
The classic pattern is recessive, so the cat must have a matched pair (mcmc). Mamma is visibly expressing Mackerel, so she must be heterozygous and carry dominant Mackerel and recessive Classic (Mcmc). Pappa also must carry an mc, but I am unable to tell what it is paired with; Mc = Mackerel, mc = Classic or Ta = Abyssinian. Of these tabby patterns, the mackerel pattern can express as solid stripes, broken stripes or spotted. All cats have a tabby pattern and all cats with agouti will have an "M" on their forhead. ([i]Actually, I believe ALL cats have that M, even the solid colors and white cats. I believe it is visible in the hair coat, in the different heights of the hair, whether agouti or pigment is there to color the hairshaft or not.[/i])

TheRedHayflinger Fri, 05/07/2010 - 21:03

is this classic tabby?

I got these two boys from work...there are three of them, but the 3rd is orange too bu has stripes like Ashes (momma of this litter I just posted). They had gunky eyes and they were going to put them down because my boss's boss thought they were diseased (they just had kitten eye gunk...this is my home health care for MR/DD clients job and one of the houses I don't work at had a house cat that had kittens)

[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Po…]
[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Po…]

aren't they darling? Momma looks just like that 2nd one, but she has longer hair. They did get her spayed after I took the three boys home and my boss took the little girl (who was a dilute tort)

TheRedHayflinger Mon, 05/10/2010 - 10:47

6 more barn kittens born. One was still kinda damp, so I'm leaving them for a bit and will check back and move them after a while and get some pics. I found them about an hour and a half ago when I was mixing up some noon feed for one of my mares.

our tabby calico, Cookie, had these ones (she is sister to Ashes, the one who had the first litter)...and yes, I have to move them. She had them in a trash can on top of a bag of trash -_-

From what I seen...4 more tabby..could look like the two tabbies that Ashes had, or could be brown tabby, it's dark in that corner of the garage. 1 orange tabby. One black one that has silver around his eyes...so could look like Gremlin? (the father of the first litter...our only male). None have much if any white on them.

And....one of our cats, JJ, has been missing for a few weeks. I figured an eagle or coyote might have picked him up. He returned this weekend...or I should say SHE returned. Yes...we checked sex as a young kit and apparently we were wrong. She is the most skittish out of all our cats. The others come up to you and want to hang out, she likes to keep her distance. So, guess I never really noticed much..lol. Hopefully JJ won't have her kits in a stupid spot like Ashes and Cookie have, because I won't feel comfortable moving her babies. Ashes and Cookie are far more trusting, or I wouldn't have attempted to move kits so soon.

Pretty sure I'll just leave Cookies kits in the trash can, but take the bag of trash out and put down some straw and a cat pillow we have down in there. It's a pretty safe spot and she seems pleased with it, and being minus one trash can for several weeks will be fine...we rarely use it anyway--mainly for empty feed sacks and the odd pop bottle.

Sara Mon, 05/10/2010 - 11:03

One of my friends had a feral cat have her kittens on the counter where she mixes feed for her ponies. I was there the other week when she was feeding and there was a squirmy bundle of kittens right there on the corner of the counter, and apparently the Mom Cat just comes and nurses them when my friend is not in the barn. Luckily this means the babies are being handled and socialized but it's a weird place for a wild cat to pick!

TheRedHayflinger Mon, 05/10/2010 - 11:24

i would have SWORE all the girls would have had them in the hay mow in the barn...but nope..they wanted up closer to the house! Does make it easier to feed them there though, as we store the cat food in a garbage can out there...one less bucket of feed to haul out to horse barn I guess! The moving of the kits went without any fanfare and I snapped a few quick group shots of them before Cookie stopped eating (fed her and rubbed all over her and then handled them quickly to put them on some straw). They are much smaller than Ashes kits. But boy do they have sets of lungs on them!!! MEWWWWWW!

Heidi Mon, 05/10/2010 - 11:45

I'm glad the moves went well for everybody.

[i]...and I must ask:[/i]
Would you like information about spay/neuter resources if any are in your area?
What happens to the kittens born from this many litters and/or can your property support such a large and growing colony of cats?

[i]My apologies for butting in, but I rescue and foster kittens/cats for adoption and am a spay/neuter advocate to help reduce and stop pet overpopulation.[/i]
h =^..^= :oops:

Sara Mon, 05/10/2010 - 11:53

Well, bluntly, If Stauffer's property is anything like mine there will be a lot of loss. I've had to put a mental block up between my house cats and the ferals because I can't save them all. At one time I counted as many as 17 cats on my property and now I'm down to my own five plus just one feral. I need some of those ferals back as I have been seeing mouse poops in my feed room! I'm actually hoping the newest feral is female so she starts repopulating.

TheRedHayflinger Tue, 05/11/2010 - 16:51

we have 3 acres personally...surrounded by my grandma's 300+ acres..lol She leases out her's for farmland--corn and soybeans and this year wheat too. Then there is the wooded area. And several abandoned barns. And my horse barn. We have 4 cats total and we needed these kittens. The mice were starting to come into our house and garage. My mom has had to replace the wiring in her car twice in the past two years due to mice chewing the wiring up.

That being said, we also lose a lot of cats to eagles and coyotes sadly. I'd love to have indoor cats, but I'm allergic. I still love every one of them and we give them their vaccinations and feed them in addition to them hunting. They aren't feral, but I have grown up understanding that sometimes they will just disappear, but I still get pretty attached to them all and do get sad when one does come up missing.

We also make a sizable donation to the local pound and donate kitten and puppy food several times throughout the year. All of our dogs are spayed/neutered as well.

But I do totally understand why you asked :)

NZ Appaloosas Tue, 05/11/2010 - 21:47

My friend who died in February gave up getting her ferals fixed...she said every time she did, the cat would be killed or disappeared (coyotes, etc., in her area). And like Sara said, the population fluctuated a lot. Most of her cats, btw, didn't come from wild cats breeding madly, but touristy who came up for the summer or military types who were stationed at the fort not too far away, and who dumped the cats after their stay in the area was up. :BH :BH :BH

Diane

Heidi Tue, 05/11/2010 - 22:14

[quote="TheRedHayflinger"]But I do totally understand why you asked :)[/quote]
Thank you.
As I understand your situation ... it is a rural area and your outside cats have a job to do and they perform a specific purpose for you. They are not quite completely wild, but they live/die by the same rules the indigenous wildlife follow ... with a little extra help from you with feeding and love.
With my involvement with rescue, I *had* to ask. Thanks for answering and helping me understand the situation. This is completely different from urban cat issues and I'm good with it.

TheRedHayflinger Wed, 05/12/2010 - 05:29

[quote="NZ Appaloosas"]My friend who died in February gave up getting her ferals fixed...she said every time she did, the cat would be killed or disappeared (coyotes, etc., in her area). [/quote]

Several years back when we had a large fluctuation of cats (mostly dumped out on us one spring--we were up to 40 cats!) we had some of them fixed..well..30 or so of them. The local pound helped us with this since they were dumped on us and we were willing to take them all in.

Within 3 months, all the fixed ones had disappeared. They also didn't hunt as often or at all...they were the ones that just wanted to lounge around on the porch all day and night and maybe follow me out to the back yard on occasion. We have a ton of coyotes and it was nothing to see 20 or so in the front yard at night.

The two little orange kits I posted asking about pattern are starting to get that urge to hunt! The third one I didn't post hasn't yet, but he's been inside in our basement getting treated for an upper respiratory infection. The other two are out in the barn and they have been trying SOOO hard to catch a mouse! I bet they will get their first kill any day. I sat and watched them yesterday and they were busting butt because they wanted that "toy"...hahaha.

TheRedHayflinger Wed, 05/12/2010 - 05:44

[quote="Heidi"][quote="TheRedHayflinger"]But I do totally understand why you asked :)[/quote]
Thank you.
As I understand your situation ... it is a rural area and your outside cats have a job to do and they perform a specific purpose for you. They are not quite completely wild, but they live/die by the same rules the indigenous wildlife follow ... with a little extra help from you with feeding and love.
With my involvement with rescue, I *had* to ask. Thanks for answering and helping me understand the situation. This is completely different from urban cat issues and I'm good with it.[/quote]

Thanks :)

Last year was the first year we'd had kittens in a few years and we needed them....and only 3 of those kittens survived (we had 6).

Now I just need to give them names...the tabby kittens that all look alike will be named when they are older and I can tell them apart more easily (if I can do it with 30 New Zealand White rabbits...surely I can with kittens...lol. My mom never understood when I raised rabbits how I could tell who was who in the NZW and Cals without checking ear tattoos). I did name the white with black spots--"Moo" It looks like a little moo-cow! LOL. Yes. I'm horrible with names, as are my brothers. Growing up, at my grandparents farm we had cats named Crisco, Mouse Trap, Lotion, Bearcat...even a blue-grey named Cheese...I'd blame it on being young, but I still give cats weird names. Our 4 adults now are lucky with normal names--JJ, Ashes, Cookie and Gremlin.

TheRedHayflinger Wed, 05/12/2010 - 11:13

she didn't have them in the garage. SHE is staying in the garage, but she had them outside under a bush and it is pouring rain. She left them there and is staying away. I brought them in the garage and she is just growling at them and wants nothing to do with them (my scent shouldn't be on them as I wore latex gloves to bring them in). Ashes came over and carried all three over to her pile of kittens (which are older than I thought..one has it's eyes starting to peep open!) and is licking them and allowing them to nurse.

I caught JJ and she has let them nurse..or at least let two nurse while she birthed the 3rd (you can tell by looking at her teats). None have been cleaned up much at all and Ashes took care of that (one still had a bit of the sac on it's hind legs). I got home at 9:30am and JJ was "deflated" and on the back porch eating from the food bowl. I've kept an eye on her and she went right to the garage and has been in there ever since. That's 2 1/2 hours these babies have been getting soaked minimum (it's been raining all morning). They are mewing and very active and not terrible cool to the touch. I set a heat lamp up over Ashes litter a ways up to help give a bit of warmth, but not overwarm the others (it's about 70F outside). So my question: Do I let Ashes keep all 3, bringing the kittens she is caring for up to 8? Or do I give one to Cookie if she'll accept it, so each are caring for 7?
We've been giving everyone free choice food and loads of water. We also have some kitten formula here in the house as a "just in case".

And as I'm typing this...JJ is leaving the garage and heading out to the horse barn...complete opposite of where she had her kittens and left them.

Sara Wed, 05/12/2010 - 11:55

One of my sort-of-tamed ferals was a terrible mother. She did eventually begrudgingly let them nurse but never was very attentive. Her own mom was a super mother. I was in a bit of a panic over the way she would leave her babies for hours at a time but she did eventually mother them enough that they at least got enough to eat. Luckily hers were in a pile of horse blankets and not in the rain though.

And of course I had her spayed after that litter and she vanished about six months later. She may or may not have been the dead animal I found on the road. It was very... hot that week. My neutered male, that cat's littermate, has turned into a total house cat and rarely hunts any more.

TheRedHayflinger Wed, 05/12/2010 - 12:01

Ashes seems to be smitten with them. They are dry now and nursing on her. We've got a high fat food to give the mommas. I'm hoping they live, but if not, at least I tried.

JJ will be spayed and I'll try to find a new home for her or she can just hang around here. But this way she won't have kits and abandon them all the time.

Sara Wed, 05/12/2010 - 12:05

Back 40-whatever years ago when people didn't spay and my parents had cats that had kittens all the time, they had one who was also a very bad mom and her own mom would take the grandkittens and nurse them. Maybe cats are more likely to nurse each other's offspring than some animals.

TheRedHayflinger Wed, 05/12/2010 - 12:16

For sure.

My grandparents always had a ton of cats on their farm. We'd go hunting for the kittens and bring them up to this shed we had full of straw and the mommas would all go in there and there would be a massive pile of kittens with three or 4 mommas nursing whatever...lol

I'm worried that they were outside all that time and getting soaked...but they seem strong and have full bellies now.

TheRedHayflinger Thu, 05/13/2010 - 10:27

don't know if they'll make it, but very early this morning, my mom found two more kittens under the back porch, along with a partially eaten one (or two..she didn't really check). They were cool to the touch but mewing a bit. (under the porch is just gravel) She brought them in and warmed them up and gave them some kitten formula until she had to go to work. I got home an hour later and I've given them some as well and they started getting stronger and mewing louder...so I gave them to Cookie. They've been out there with her since 9:30am and are still alive (it's just after 11am now). Nice and toasty with some new siblings to keep them warm.

I caught JJ after I seen her going out to the barn yesterday and she's been inside since then, so she couldn't have had them last night or after I found the first ones. I wanted to keep an eye on her just in case she had any more (which she didn't) and she is scheduled to be spayed in a bit over a week and she is usually a fairly hard to catch cat. I don't mind having kittens as we need them, but I don't need a queen who is going to abandon her kittens.

I really do not know how those two kits survived. The only thing I can think of is that either Ashes or Cookie found them at some point and went back and forth between them and their litter, but didn't carry them into the garage.

JJ is downstairs in the basement acting like a queen, not a care in the world, beating up on my pomeranian...the brat!

I'm going to check them all over later for full tummies and give the mommas some more chow. Will try to take some pics of them then if they are doing okay.

TheRedHayflinger Thu, 05/13/2010 - 10:37

i'm thinking that momma is the one that partially ate the kitten.

My mom is thinking the same thing I am...the nursing females came up to the back porch last night for some extra food my mom fixed up for them in addition to their food in the garage...found them...nursed them and then just didn't carry them back to the garage due to the rain we were having.

Jenks Thu, 05/13/2010 - 14:15

[quote="TheRedHayflinger"]i'm thinking that momma is the one that partially ate the kitten.

My mom is thinking the same thing I am...the nursing females came up to the back porch last night for some extra food my mom fixed up for them in addition to their food in the garage...found them...nursed them and then just didn't carry them back to the garage due to the rain we were having.[/quote]

I trapped a feral cat once, took her to the vet who found her in labor with one left in her as my security people call me back to work to pick up the bucket of kittens I'd apparently taken her from. We put them all in with her and she ate all but a single one before we got up. Just stress can make them do it I think? Very weird, but it does happen.

I hope they're all OK!