The Colors of Life

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what colours are these?

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dakotakdq
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what colours are these?
Im so confused on my cat and kittens colours! Mum is white with black & orange spots IMAGE(http://s1.postimage.org/NZHii.jpg) Kittens are: 1x male white with orange tiger patches - 2nd pic 1x male white with grey tiger patches - 1st pic 1x male orange tiger colour - 1st pic 1x male same as mum, white with orange and black spots/patches - 3rd pic 1x female - marked like a border collie dog. 4th pic IMAGE(http://s4.postimage.org/jAJcS.jpg) IMAGE(http://s1.postimage.org/NnJei.jpg) IMAGE(http://s2.postimage.org/K0MES.jpg) IMAGE(http://s3.postimage.org/E37TJ.jpg)
Heather
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Re: what colours are these?

I bet your third one down like mom is actually a female 8-)

Dilutes
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Re: what colours are these?

Lol so do I heather :lol:

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Sara
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Re: what colours are these?

I've always wanted a cat marked like the third one!! Send him... her... to me!

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dakotakdq
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Re: what colours are these?

I had them sexed (thay are nearly 12 weeks old now) and she (lady that breds cats near me) said he was a he, lol. only has one dot (bum) and nothing to indicate a female.
who knows maybe il have to check again

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Hey What The
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Re: what colours are these?

It's so hard to tell what sex kittens are sometimes. I have a black fluffy cat that was sexed by a vet when about 6 weeks old as a female yet 4 months later when 'she' was bathing 'herself' out popped a penis :rofl

Dogrose
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Re: what colours are these?

Tortie cats are nearly always female- not always though, there is a (very very) slight possibility it is a boy.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Heather
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Re: what colours are these?

I had them sexed (thay are nearly 12 weeks old now) and she (lady that breds cats near me) said he was a he, lol. only has one dot (bum) and nothing to indicate a female.
who knows maybe il have to check again

If she was that good lol, and knew better, she would have been like "OMG this is a male" because it is mega rare for a calico or torti cat to be male, very rare. ...more then likly it was just an opps.. :flower If I looked and saw male on that color, Id be like "ok we need a second opinion LOL no way! realy?" Heck maybe it is...but if im not mistaken I thought they are sterile...donno. ( if male that is)

Heidi
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Re: what colours are these?

Black, Red and White, or just Black/Red, is ALWAYS FEMALE (XX) ... unless there is a genetic oddity and the male is XXY (and sterile) instead of XY.
Kitten #4 is a Tortie female or a rare XXY male. I'm going to lean towards Tortie female. ANYONE who has enough knowledge to sex a tortie, torbie or calico as a male would also know about the rarity and be jumping up/down and excited. I don't think your person has this knowledge. ;)

These kitties are a mix of genetics, having variations of White Spotting, base colors of black and red, with a dilute thrown in there, though that is called "dense". D= full color and d= dilute color. Dilute needs to be dd. All kitties with tabby markings have at least one agouti, with exceptions for the red kitties because agouti doesn't affect red hair, only black hair ... the red cats will *always* show their tabby pattern, though it can be difficult to see on the dilute reds and/or longhair cats. Even if they do carry agouti, their hairshafts won't be banded with color like an agouti tabby cat's hairshafts.

Mom is a Tortie; black, red, no agouti, het for dense. OoaaDd. Dad had to also be het for agouti in order to have kittens both tabby and solid and het for dense and dilute to have kittens both full color and dilute.

supaspot60
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Re: what colours are these?

Dad had to also be het for agouti in order to have kittens both tabby and solid and het for dense and dilute to have kittens both full color and dilute.

true but theres also the possibility of more than one sire

Dogrose
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Re: what colours are these?

I know an XXY human who is fertile, born physically male but now living as female, but she did father two children in the past.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Heidi
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Re: what colours are these?

true but theres also the possibility of more than one sire

Of course there is that possibility, though in cases where the male cats are not numerous or there is a dominant tom or a female particular with whom she shares her company, it is possible for the litter to be the product of one sire whose varied genes mix/match with the varied female's genes and produces a wildly variable litter.

It is only my opinion that the multi-fathered litters are not as common as thought and are instead the mix-match-mish-mosh of various genes from the two parents combining in various ways and it is that visible 'evidence' that gave 'proof' to the different sires theory. I don't disagree that multiple sires cannot happen, because it can, I just don't believe it happens as often as we think.

Dogrose
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Re: what colours are these?

I had a cat that definitely had kittens from two sires, one black and one ginger/white. Mother was oo and had both oo (black) and Oo (tortoiseshell) girls in the litter, the father of the Oo girls must have been O (the ginger) and the father of the black girl must have been o (the black).

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

critterkeeper
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Re: what colours are these?

It must the the "over the pond/US" terminology thing because I was confused at first when everyone was refering to the calico kitten as a torti. To me torti is a basically "solid-looking" blend of black/red with very little white". A Calico is mostly white with patches of black/red that are distinct from each other (as apposed to the blending in torti's). :rofl

As to the male vs female thing - I've had dozens and dozens of calicos and tortis and all were female EXCEPT for ONE (the son of one of my torti females and a red/white tom). And he was NOT sterile. BB (Big Boy) was the talk of all my breeder friends in town - I sold that boy for over $500 back 30 yrs ago.

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dakotakdq
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Re: what colours are these?

father is the same as the 1 of the kittens in colour, he is grey tiger striped on top and white underneath.

I have no idea about colours!

thanks so much for all the advice :)

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Heidi
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Re: what colours are these?

It must the the "over the pond/US" terminology thing because I was confused at first when everyone was refering to the calico kitten as a torti. To me torti is a basically "solid-looking" blend of black/red with very little white". A Calico is mostly white with patches of black/red that are distinct from each other (as apposed to the blending in torti's). :rofl

Wow! Awesome info-bit about your Big Boy! Do you have a photo of him to scan or take a digital pic of the photo?

I was also very confused about the whole Calico, Tortie, Torbie thing when I was trying to learn their differences and it is mostly a difference of 'descriptive name'.
Torties have no agouti but can have white, though I dislike calling them 'calico'. Torbies have tabby stripes all-over and can have white or no white. Torties with enough red fur to show their tabby pattern are not Torbies because they do not have agouti to tabby-band their black fur. Calicos have all three colors (black, red & white) but are generally only called Calico when their color patches are distinct and not mottled or mingled together like the Tortie/Torbie pattern.

The defining characteristic of calico or tortoiseshell is the presence of both black and red fur.
Calico is a general descriptive term and usually means three colors; black, red and white in distinct patches. Tortoiseshell (Tortie) is another descriptive term that describes the way the fur colors (black/red) swirl and mingle together like the shell of a tortoise. These cats can have either white markings or no white markings. Torbie cats have an agouti gene that makes their tabby pattern visible; Tortoiseshell + Tabby = Torbie and can also have or not have white markings.
These variations make it difficult to pin down an accurate term that covers all possibilities.

These are what I would call Calico: IMAGE(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:J8vWw9jgdZNdeM:http://www.vetnetwork.net/pca/articles/news/images/tortoiseshell1.jpg) IMAGE(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QLkNsis3xm-hUM:http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v434/n7031/images/434279a-f1.2.jpg)
This is a Tortoiseshell: IMAGE(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:nmFqk3vVvc4z6M:http://z.about.com/d/cats/1/0/U/v/2/Sonsy640x480.jpg) These are Tortie w/ white: IMAGE(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:FU9LWeOFnQohmM:http://jellyfishenglish.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/350px-tortie-flame.jpg) IMAGE(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:klosl-C7jg7ReM:http://www.cats-central.com/cat-pictures/images/calico-cat-3.jpg)
This is a Torbie w/ white, note the tabby stripes: IMAGE(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:b7OM8hKJZ7yXdM:http://biogetopics.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/800px-coca-cat11.jpg) This is a Torbie w/ no white: IMAGE(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Ludl1vHKMfmKAM:http://www.wherepetsarefound.com.au/wp-content/uploads/classipress/jet_952496729/Large_jet_952496729.jpg)
The Torbies above and the Tortie below show very good examples of how the agouti gene affects black fur, but not red fur. The below Tortie has NO agouti so her black fur remains black instead of tabby striped, like the Torbies above. Since agouti only affects black fur, and not red fur ... red tabby pattern stripes will *always* be visible, but they will never be 'ticked' or ‘banded’ like a black-based cat with agouti to band their black hair shafts.
IMAGE(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:kUAxEkKOaC2L8M:http://www.freewebs.com/foxstep/Dreamcloud%2520Skyclan%2520Warriors%2520Cats%2520Tortoiseshell.jpg)

These are my own cats:
Malibu, showing the agouti banding of her Classic Tabby pattern.
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/78SilvAnniv/my%20kitties/th_Malibuah.jpg)
Pretty, a Spotted Mackerel, showing her variation of agouti banding.
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/78SilvAnniv/my%20kitties/th_Prettyab.jpg)
BooBoo, a self-red Classic Tabby.
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/78SilvAnniv/my%20kitties/th_BooBooab.jpg)
This is Floofy, another self-red Mackerel Tabby longhair with Homzyg recessive dense.
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/78SilvAnniv/my%20kitties/th_Floofyag.jpg)

Dogrose
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Re: what colours are these?

I think from a genetic point of view its easier to disregard the white markings on a tortie, I've known of people argue that only torties are female and because theirs has white or is tabby not self black based it could be male!
Not all tortie males are tortie because of Kleinfelter's (XXY), some are chimeras or somatic, and not all Kleinfelter's are infertile but I believe they can often have physical or behavioural abnormalities.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

slaneyrose
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Re: what colours are these?

This is so interesting!! I have a tortie with a tiny bit of white on her chest, she is pretty AND bossy (is very vocal and if you ask her what she wants she will show you!)Thanks for all the information guys. :love

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dakotakdq
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Re: what colours are these?

well we had the kitten sexed again, hes def a male.

[color=#800080][b]http://lenzoperformancehorses.webs.com/[/b][/color]
[color=#0000FF][url]http://www.freewebs.com/etongrove[/url] [/color]
Eton Grove Stud is the is home of:
Amaroo Forgotton Hero (QH) & Lazy D Rocks Golddigger (QH/ASH)

critterkeeper
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Re: what colours are these?

Sorry Heidi, I do not have any pixs of Big Boy, after all it was 30 YEARS ago that we sold him -- WAY before digital imagery came into being and all my reg. photos got lost in a house fire back in '96. I personally know of him fathering 7 litters of which all were female (so he just happened to be the One-in-a-Million). Dakotakdq, congratulations on having your own "Big Boy". :love

Kylene "A dog has lots of friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue." ~ Anonymous

dakotakdq
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Re: what colours are these?

thanks, hes the runt of the litter (catching up now thou) so I have a soft spot for him adn will keep him probably now. He will be fixed up just in case thou! His mum and older sister and being fixed up tues :)

[color=#800080][b]http://lenzoperformancehorses.webs.com/[/b][/color]
[color=#0000FF][url]http://www.freewebs.com/etongrove[/url] [/color]
Eton Grove Stud is the is home of:
Amaroo Forgotton Hero (QH) & Lazy D Rocks Golddigger (QH/ASH)

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