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Medicine hats...

So are medicine hats most often overo, tobiano, or tovero? (Yes, there is a reason this is in foal color and I will reveal that at some point. :D )

Monsterpony Sat, 03/14/2009 - 03:03

I would guess that it can't be solely tobiano just because tobiano likes its chest and flank shield.

Songcatcher Sat, 03/14/2009 - 08:16

So are medicine hats most often overo, tobiano, or tovero?

(Yes, there is a reason this is in foal color and I will reveal that at some point. :D )

So, are you trying to cause Jane to boil or what? :lol:

I would think they are a combination of patterns with a likelyhood of being homozygous for something (probably Splash).

Paintlover Sat, 03/14/2009 - 09:05

This is interesting. I just had the same thought a few days ago and was wondering myself. Most of the medicine hat horses I have seen ( now that I know more about genetics) I would say were probably tobiano and splash, the evident genes not that they didn't carry frame or sabino too.

So IMO of the ones I have seen they are, excuse the expression, toveros. I agree with monsterpony that I doubt just a tobiano would be medicine hat. Maybe on a very rare occasion but usually MH horses have more white and loud patterns to be plain tobi. Plus how many horses are just tobi anyway?

I also just heard someone tell me that their mare was MH and she was sabino. Unfortunately she never showed any pictures because I suspect more was going on then just sabino. So I looked it up and according to other sources sabinos can be MH. However again IMO I don't think they are sabino only for the most part anyhow.

Also, just throwing this out but I am beginning to think that splash might be responsible for most MH. Just a thought.

Sara Sat, 03/14/2009 - 11:16

it happens occasionally in Welshes so it could be just splash/sabino. I see it more often in Paints though so I imagine there is usually tobiano at work there.

I thought the same thing about making rabbit boil!

rabbitsfizz Sat, 03/14/2009 - 11:46

Medicine hat is usually caused by Sabino, as far as I know, and a combination of other patterns ...(PLEASE stop using useless pointless terms BTW, :BH :hammer this is just one good example of why they are stupid!!!)
As far as I can ascertain, and remember all this is informed guesswork as we have no tests to back them up, but it seems to be Sabino pushing the patterns around, so Sabin + Tobiano on their own probably would not do it , maybe H/Z Sabino, and more than one type of Sabino, do it, but you seem to need something m,ore, and Splash and Frame both "break up" the solid lumps of colour.
Think of the horse as a battlefield, and the different patterns shove the different patterns and colours around all over the shop.
The patterns they end up with rely on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the patterns involved.
So we know Splash and Frame break up the solid colours, we know that Tobiano limits white forward of the shoulder, we know Sabino puts "shields" of colour onto white (as in Medicine Hats, when they have the "war shields" on their shoulders??) so I think that the medicine hat is one of these "shields" it is just that it is isolated on the head...sometimes the colour gores further down, but so long as it is cut off from the neck it is still a medicine hat, just called a Warbonnet, instead!!

Paintlover Sat, 03/14/2009 - 12:21

I do agree!! Who decides what qualifies as a medicine hat anyway. :roll: It really is just an interesting look that happens sometimes when patterns mix, IMO. It is kind of like saying tri-colored to make the horse sound different and interesting. :shock: :? :roll:

accphotography Sat, 03/14/2009 - 13:57

Well I don't mind it because it generally gives a person a VERY good idea what the horse looks like without ever having to see it.

If it's NOT a max sabino, I would typically say it was a tovero.

The reason I brought it up is this little guy:…

Dam is frame + probably sabino. She's never thrown her frame before now, but she has thrown foals with belly spots who were frame negative.

The sire is from a frame + splash family, but is frame negative. He doesn't have any excess white, just what one would expect from a sabino + possible splash.

I was hoping for color. I was expecting if they got color it would be similar to mom, maybe with a little more face and leg white. What came out... I about fell off my chair.

I personally don't think this is a max sabino. I'd expect a bit more of that topline white gone, and I'd also expect there wouldn't be flank color left. I think this is "maximum frame". I think if splash were heavily involved the flank spot would be gone too as splash likes to move up the flank. I know some people might see what I mean when I say if I hadn't known, I'd have said this foal had tobiano. I'm just stunned by him. Don't see them like this very often, especially not from these parents.

accphotography Sat, 03/14/2009 - 14:05

Another thing of note that would definitely separate him from a possible tobiano carrier (and likely a max sabino too... and splash too for that matter)... his tail is 100% solid.

Songcatcher Sat, 03/14/2009 - 15:15

Wish I could get the picture of the foal. :BH

Woah! There it finally came up. Loud little thing. Hope I get something similar from my LWO stallion.

accphotography Sat, 03/14/2009 - 15:21

Well lookey there!! They must have just done that as I checked not long ago and there weren't any up yet. :lol:

Paintlover Sat, 03/14/2009 - 16:42

So he probably carries all three overo genes but what you are saying is you don't think that it is max sabino but rather very loud frame in this case.

All I can say is I bet they were surprised!!!! :laugh1 :bounce

accphotography Sat, 03/14/2009 - 16:58

I have no doubt they were surprised. They are 4 for 4 with colts this year. Before this colt they were 3 for 3 with black colts. :laugh1 before that they were 2 for 2 with *solid* black colts. :laugh1 They LOOOOOVE LOUD whites so I'm sure they are *over the moon* with this fellow (though I'm sure slightly disappointed he's chestnut).

Yeah based on the solid tail, I suspect the majority of his white is neither sabino nor splash, so yup, mostly frame. :HB

Krickette Sun, 03/15/2009 - 02:44

couldn't get the video to load, but found a link to pictures, lol.…


that's wild!

and all the medicine hats I've seen irl were registered as "tovero," one of them was Cajun, my friend's mare I told y'all about a couple of times.…
as well as both of these girls:…
this was as cajun was being rescued and cappy and her baby were discovered. they were rescued soon after

Songcatcher Sun, 03/15/2009 - 07:55

Just a thought here. If a medicine hat does not have Tobiano, it CANNOT be a Tovero. :coffee

Paintlover Sun, 03/15/2009 - 08:15

Just a thought here. If a medicine hat does not have Tobiano, it CANNOT be a Tovero. :coffee

Right!! It is just that most of the ones I was used to seeing had Tobi and seeing Tobi doesn't usually do that on its own it would be Tovero, I know tovero is a naughty word. ;) However since this topic was brought up I keep seeing non Tobi medicine hat horses. :laugh1 Kind of like after you buy a blue neon you see all blue neons. :rofl

Bannerminis Mon, 03/16/2009 - 13:30

This is my filly Shimmers sire - Silver Grace Serious Stuff - aka Alfie. I have been told that he is a Chocolate Medicine Hat tobiano + overo. Of course he probably has SB1 too and if Shimmer is a minimal case of Splash then it came from Alfie.
Shimmers sire is Bay no markings and no sign of any sabino roaning. You can see her at this link…

rabbitsfizz Mon, 03/16/2009 - 16:13

To be a medicine hat the colour must cover both ears and only the ears, really, not half the face.
I would need more pictures to tell for sure but he does not look like a medicine hat to me, nor a warbonnet.
Lipi. all the LTD horses have loads else going on besides Frame, frame alone does not cause medicine hat, nor does Tobiano ...Tobiano never does, BTW as Tobiano does not have face white.
And can we stop with the overo/tovero before I really do have a hissy fit??
It is not a term here, so why use it??
We have all "pinto" patterns except Framer indigenously, why import stupid confusing terms along with the good stuff??

Sara Mon, 03/16/2009 - 16:38

And can we stop with the overo/tovero before I really do have a hissy fit??

I think we had everyone really well trained at the old forum but now there are a whole new crop of people for you to train. [-x (this is you, rabbit)

accphotography Mon, 03/16/2009 - 16:40

LOL! Well honestly, when the exact pattern present can not be known, it does make it easy to just say "tovero" as opposed to "tobiano and some type of overo pattern or patterns, which ones are unknown".

accphotography Mon, 03/16/2009 - 16:45

Probably not, I just don't really feel it's necessary. The term tovero is understood by most and when the facts aren't known, it's just as good as anything else IMO.

Sara Mon, 03/16/2009 - 16:47

I think the thing is that one "overo" pattern is frame and it's dangerous to lump it with the others.

accphotography Mon, 03/16/2009 - 16:54

I do agree with that, definitely. However when it's not known if frame is present or not... *shrug*

Songcatcher Mon, 03/16/2009 - 20:10

most of the medicine minis I have seen have frame , for instance the Ltds farm

If this meets the qualifications of Medicine Hat, he has no Frame. Definately Mini, Splash, Tobi, and likely Sabino, but NO Frame.

Here is a filly sired by this stallion out of a mare with absolutely no white markings. Proof that he is Tobiano.