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Fewspot?

What's going on with this mare? She has some of the most interesting markings I've ever seen. http://o-ranchapps.com/100_0956.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arock Fri, 01/22/2010 - 05:57

Beautiful mare! She has retained color in the pit area, coronets... other than the right rear sock. She has a visible spot on her head. Her ear tips are visibly white.
I would also say fewspot!

I would alo be interested in seeing a photo of the foal's sire. Wondering if he's a solid?

rabbitsfizz Fri, 01/22/2010 - 09:55

If she did not have those spots I would say "yes" so, I wonder, are those spots actually anything to do with the Appy bit. Just ignore the fact that she is Appy for a mo, and think what you would consider they indicate if she were not Appy?

Arock Fri, 01/22/2010 - 10:08

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]If she did not have those spots I would say "yes" so, I wonder, are those spots actually anything to do with the Appy bit. Just ignore the fact that she is Appy for a mo, and think what you would consider they indicate if she were not Appy?[/quote]
Fewspots can have a "few" spots.
Her breeding is unknown. We can only go by the photo. She does "appear" to be a fewspot but if there is more info about the mare, I would love to see it.

Jenks Fri, 01/22/2010 - 10:59

[quote="Arock"][quote="rabbitsfizz"]If she did not have those spots I would say "yes" so, I wonder, are those spots actually anything to do with the Appy bit. Just ignore the fact that she is Appy for a mo, and think what you would consider they indicate if she were not Appy?[/quote]
Fewspots can have a "few" spots.
Her breeding is unknown. We can only go by the photo. She does "appear" to be a fewspot but if there is more info about the mare, I would love to see it.[/quote]

Ah: ETS:

Appalusian colt
He is registered HALF ANDALUSIAN
and has been micro chipped and DNA'd with registry
Born April 25, 2009
Black bay near leopard

Sire: Legado - 16hh Dark Bay/Black Andalusian
Dressage US National Champion, 3rd level Dressge Eastern Regional Champion and producer of same

Dam: Sunny Chick - black base, fewspot foundation ApHC

Star Light is La Cruzada's Future Dressage & stallion prospect for Appalusians/half Andalusians.

The owner said:
He is my first Appalusian and I am thrilled with the results.
Star Light has such poise and grace. What a delight in watching him move. The pattern is just the icing on the cake, but I knew Kizzy would produce something wonderfully colorful.

Kizzy is "Sunny Chick" see: http://o-ranchapps.com/Weanlings.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Heidi Fri, 01/22/2010 - 11:51

[quote="Arock"]Beautiful mare! She has retained color in the pit area, coronets... [u]other than the right rear sock.[/u] She has a visible spot on her head. Her ear tips are visibly white.
I would also say fewspot![/quote]
All four of the backs of her ankles have dark patches, I think it only seems she has a sock on that back leg because the dark color is on the 'outside' and not the inside. This different photo angle shows the color well.
http://o-ranchapps.com/100_1062.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CMhorses Fri, 01/22/2010 - 14:57

Looks like a fewspot that did not varnish out, but then that raises the question of, I thought fewspots had to be LpLp and wouldn't that guarantee a horse that varnishes?

Jenks Fri, 01/22/2010 - 15:13

[quote="CMhorses"]Looks like a fewspot that did not varnish out, but then that raises the question of, I thought fewspots had to be LpLp and wouldn't that guarantee a horse that varnishes?[/quote]

Maybe she's not done varnishing out? She is registered as a fewspot.

Do black-based appies varnish slower like black-based greys?

Monsterpony Fri, 01/22/2010 - 15:37

The spots on appies don't always varnish out. It is the rest of the base coat that varnishes. My 25 year old completely varnished snowcap still has one clear spot.

Arock Fri, 01/22/2010 - 16:26

[quote="Heidi"][quote="Arock"]Beautiful mare! She has retained color in the pit area, coronets... [u]other than the right rear sock.[/u] She has a visible spot on her head. Her ear tips are visibly white.
I would also say fewspot![/quote]
All four of the backs of her ankles have dark patches, I think it only seems she has a sock on that back leg because the dark color is on the 'outside' and not the inside. This different photo angle shows the color well.
http://o-ranchapps.com/100_1062.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]
Yes but I was referring to the coronet in front. Non LP socks will cover LP generated markings & hoof color. That is the reason one of the LP traits says striped feet on dark legs. Most of the time fewspots or snowcaps (H/Z) will have amber or non pigmented feet (on dark legs) but a few can have a stripe at some time in their life.
[quote]Looks like a fewspot that did not varnish out, but then that raises the question of, I thought fewspots had to be LpLp and wouldn't that guarantee a horse that varnishes?

[/quote]
Fewspots & snowcaps are LP/LP...and always nightblind.

Heidi Fri, 01/22/2010 - 21:10

Okay, I'm trying to get my head around this concept ...
Appy's have stripped hooves because Lp *puts* mottled color at the coronets ([i]like in the photos of this mare[/i]) and if they have a sock the hoof would be plain/white while the others would be striped because of Lp color? My Appy gelding had front striped hooves and two white socks and white hooves in back. It this also an example of what you were describing?

Arock Sat, 01/23/2010 - 06:56

[quote="Heidi"]Okay, I'm trying to get my head around this concept ...
Appy's have stripped hooves because Lp *puts* mottled color at the coronets ([i]like in the photos of this mare[/i]) and if they have a sock the hoof would be plain/white while the others would be striped because of Lp color? My Appy gelding had front striped hooves and two white socks and white hooves in back. It this also an example of what you were describing?[/quote]

Your gelding had white feet with the sock legs & striped feet with the solid legs, correct? Yes, good example of what I am describing.

Here is a heterozygous LP filly with no socks or interfering white. Striped feet on solid legs
[img]http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/…]

This is another mare which we believe is LP/LP with no PATN1. In the snow she has no discoloration on her feet at all so what you are seeing in this pic is dirt. The left rear has a sock. That foot is white.
[img]http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/…]

Heidi Sat, 01/23/2010 - 11:41

Okay, I can see that very clearly, thanks for posting the pics so I could see because that really helped. Looking at the pics has also given me another thought: Then because of patn, and the mottling of face and private areas ... is patn making almost all of the skin mottled, too, and that is what brings up the snowflakes and roaning ... but also because of the skin mottling, it makes the coronet band mottled too, and that is what makes the hooves striped on a leg that [i]looks[/i] solid (no visible mottling) to me?

Arock Sat, 01/23/2010 - 13:37

[quote="Heidi"]Okay, I can see that very clearly, thanks for posting the pics so I could see because that really helped. Looking at the pics has also given me another thought: Then because of patn, and the mottling of face and private areas ... is patn making almost all of the skin mottled, too, and that is what brings up the snowflakes and roaning ... but also because of the skin mottling, it makes the coronet band mottled too, and that is what makes the hooves striped on a leg that [i]looks[/i] solid (no visible mottling) to me?[/quote]

PATN1 is the large white expression. LP is what turns it on. Solid foals born from generations of leopards could possibly be homozygous PATN1 depending on their sire & dam. Bred to fewspots, they would always produce leopards even though they have no LP.

There are LP horses that have different degrees of patn. Some have none. Those horses have the traits but not a blanket or any other large white.

LP is what causes all of the LP traits not patn.

The grulla filly with the striped feet is now a snowflake. She also has varnish marks (LP roaning) down both sides of her nose.

Heidi Sat, 01/23/2010 - 18:14

I could see the beginnings of the varnish pitchfork on her face, my guy had that, too. Almost completely obscuring his star as he grew older.
I'm sorry, but I got lost at the patn/lp descriptions. This is my year for paying attention and learning about that and the other white markings. Give me a bit of time and I'll get that knowledge in my head, too. Thanks for helping me understand, your descriptions are very good; clear and concise.
PATN is the blanket pattern and LP helps to make it visible. ([i]like agouti making a black cat show its' tabby stripes[/i]?) Is LP = Leopard markings?
h

Arock Sat, 01/23/2010 - 18:35

I was totally confused until I learned that LP Complex & PATN1 were entirely separate genes. Then I understood why some LP horses had large blankets or in Kizzy's case, were nose to toes and others were minimally traited.
I think her colt is beautiful! He is showing some suppression but that isn't unusual in black based leopards. What a striking stallion he will make! Congratulations to his new owner!

AppyLady Sat, 01/23/2010 - 19:26

The mare in the first post is a typical fewspot. Most fewspots have a few spots (hence the name!) on the head, neck, and/or shoulders, but none on the top of the rump. My fewspot stallion is colored very much like that mare, but he doesn't have as many spots. He does have the markings on his lower legs like she does.

Like Arock said, the LP gene is responsible for the striped hooves, mottled skin, white sclera, and a progressive sort of roaning (which seems to be called varnish on this forum). It also allows any white patterns to show up. The dense white patterning is inherited separately.

The PATN1 (leopard) gene seems to be an incomplete dominant, with PATN1/PATN1 being a nose-to-toes leopard or fewspot. PATN1/patn1 would be a near-leopard or near-fewspot. The lower end of the continuum looks very much like a blanket pattern, but is genetically a leopard.

Arock Sat, 01/23/2010 - 20:34

Thanks AppyLady! You always explain it soooo much better than I can! ^:)^ :ymapplause:

AppyLady Sat, 01/23/2010 - 21:23

I thought you did a great job, Arock! And you can send me that grulla filly anytime.

Heidi Sun, 01/24/2010 - 00:09

OoooooooOOOOooooOOOoooh. I might get a headache learning the Apps! Maybe I should concentrate on the other white markings, first. I'll try to learn all, but *oh!* this may be difficult for me! :shock: :lol:

Jenks Sun, 01/24/2010 - 06:37

I think this is the first time I've really tried to understand! Now if I can just lock it in there....

rabbitsfizz Sun, 01/24/2010 - 09:52

Apart from my experience of the matters I have no intention of trying to understand something that has absolutely no proof that it is correct.
All these years and we have not one scrap of evidence, not one test, nothing.
I have never, ever, [i]seen [/i]a proven by breeding Few Spot marked like that although, of course, I do accept that they exist, as Appylady's stallion is obviously proven by breeding, and also this mare, but, in my experience, that mare is not typical.
The fewspots I have seen have all been more or less white (Phantom is a sort of platinum colour!) with dark, navy blue, eyes.
They have not all been Minis, although Phantom and the colt we bred, are.

peruvianpasogal Sun, 01/24/2010 - 10:23

I had a snowcap colt born that within a few years he varnished out and looked like a fewspot, I wonder if that is what this girl did.

CheyAut Sun, 01/24/2010 - 10:49

[quote="AppyLady"]The PATN1 (leopard) gene seems to be an incomplete dominant, with PATN1/PATN1 being a nose-to-toes leopard or fewspot. PATN1/patn1 would be a near-leopard or near-fewspot. The lower end of the continuum looks very much like a blanket pattern, but is genetically a leopard.[/quote]

Where/when did you learn this? That is definately not what I've learned from the Appaloosa Project (granted I haven't been reading the emails from it in a long time, they're in my inbox but I lack the time), nor does it make sense to me. I have a nose to toes leopard who definately isn't homozygous for PATN, he's had solid foals, Lp only foals, and leopard foals. If he were H/Z PATN1, he'd always through patterned foals if they got Lp.

From what I understand, it's beleived there ar several PATN genes. Some cause leopards, some cause spotted blankets, ect.

Arock Sun, 01/24/2010 - 11:10

[quote]I had a snowcap colt born that within a few years he varnished out and looked like a fewspot, I wonder if that is what this girl did.[/quote]
Fewspots are born fewspots as are snowcaps & leopards.

After dark, test to see if your suspected H/Z fewspot/snowcap is blind. That would be the best test at the present time since they all are night blind.

Arock Sun, 01/24/2010 - 12:57

Yes, all homozygous LP horses are nightblind. Most owners would never guess because they are so comfortable in their surroundings. They get along fine.

AppyLady Sun, 01/24/2010 - 14:51

[quote="CheyAut"]Where/when did you learn this? That is definately not what I've learned from the Appaloosa Project (granted I haven't been reading the emails from it in a long time, they're in my inbox but I lack the time), nor does it make sense to me. I have a nose to toes leopard who definately isn't homozygous for PATN, he's had solid foals, Lp only foals, and leopard foals. If he were H/Z PATN1, he'd always through patterned foals if they got Lp.

From what I understand, it's beleived there ar several PATN genes. Some cause leopards, some cause spotted blankets, ect.[/quote]

This information actually comes from the Appaloosa Project -- I've been trying to keep up with their emails, LOL! I do know of many examples of full leopards (nose-to-toes) which were definitely NOT homozygous, but my guess is that they have other PATN genes that are boosting the level of expression. The Prince Plaudit horses, for example, have sabino to give them a boost. Most likely there are many many pattern genes, which tend to have an additive effect. The only one that has been named is PATN1, the gene responsible for leopards.

My fewspot stallion (marked very much like the mare) is 15 years old, and has many foals on the ground. Most were out of non-Appaloosa mares because he put color on all the foals. I just got him last spring, but the former owners emailed photos of 50+ of his offspring before I bought him. Most of the foals out of non-Lp mares were near-leopards, and the foals out of leopard mares were full leopards or few-spots. So in his case, the theory does seem to hold true.

They are actually quite close to having a test for LP. I'm expecting it to be available this year. Of course, that doesn't mean it will actually happen. LOL! But I can hope!

Jenks Sun, 01/24/2010 - 15:18

It actually finally makes sense to me.... I hope it all goes well! The test!

accphotography Sun, 01/24/2010 - 18:21

Well if they get the test for LP then we can definitely settle this debate.

What about that breed of "Ghost Horses"? Maybe they're Tigres? Most of the ones I've seen have been marked almost identically to this mare with the black in the armpits, pasterns, ears, etc. but the rest white. Based on production those horses definitely appear to be homozygous. Anyone know which ones I'm talking about?