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Ermine spots?

Gander May 21, 2009 February 22, 2011

Forums

If you have a bay horse, with white socks/stockings and small black spots along the coronet/top of hoof (several about the size of a quarter), are those always called ermine spots? Or do they have to be in a certain pattern/size/position? How do they differ from distal spots? Thanks! :)

accphotography Thu, 05/21/2009 - 15:04

Ermine spots touch the coronet. Distals spots are free and anywhere on the leg (surrounded by a white marking).

The current theory is that these spots represent the presence of a white suppression gene FWIW.

Gander Thu, 05/21/2009 - 15:40

You, my dear, are a wise one! :D I very much appreciate your continued assistance!

NZ Appaloosas Thu, 05/21/2009 - 20:00

Unless, of course, you're dealing with an app...then they are lightening marks (see photos of Casey in other thread).

Diane

accphotography Thu, 05/21/2009 - 21:34

Oh ok. Well that makes sense. How does that fit with ermines and distals though?

NZ Appaloosas Thu, 05/21/2009 - 21:45

Not much, just my usual caveat of if there's a chance there's appy blood in there, all bets are off :laugh1 And registered QH and APHA papers are no bar to there being "no" appy blood...take a look at Cooterville Norrell's Littel Red, it's not just a malfunction of allbreed that he has progeny listed in all three stockbreed registries...he was "solid" until he turned age 8, when he 'sprouted' a lovely blanket, IIRC, and had a name and registry change. Prior to his 'reincarnation' as the appaloosa stallion known as Cooterville Norrell's Little Red, he was a registered QH stallion by the name of Brown Buck or something like that...I'd have to get my copy of Spotted Pride out to be 100% of his QH name (heck, I usually mess up on the Cooterville and Norrell part, since I can never remember which one has the 's after it... :rofl )

Diane

accphotography Fri, 05/22/2009 - 00:07

Ooooh. I gotchya. Thanks! So they are really not sabino things like my old mare has but are part of the LP pattern. I seeeee.

dakotakdq Fri, 05/22/2009 - 00:35

my bucky mare had the black spots in her socks (all 4) that joined her coronet band, and all her foals do too, thou one foal actually had a black triangle that came from the coroent band in his sock as well!!

rabbitsfizz Fri, 05/22/2009 - 13:39

My Welsh mare had them and we called them her "naughty spots", like the collies have!!
I am not sure I would bother calling marks on an appy foal anything....as they are very likely to disappear by adult hood.
If they are present in a mature animal, looking as they do in those foal shots, then they would certainly be part of an Appy pattern....if they were clear cut and since the Appy breed people seem to have a strange idea about markings, I would say they are caused by (oh hush my mouth...) Splash or more likely Sabino. :rofl
This is what I had always thought caused Lightening Marks...ie zig-zaggy marks loosely connected to a white marking of some kind, as per ACC's original picture but more so.

ACC, when you have a moment, could you enlarge on the "white suppression" thing, but could I ask you put it in simple language??
I would like to understand it and I am going through a bad patch, where information just does not go in, consequently I have just not even looked at the DW or Seal Brown threads as I can't digest the information and I find that very frustrating!!!

accphotography Fri, 05/22/2009 - 14:09

I agree that's it's unlikely those foals will keep those clearly marked lightning strikes, but just based on the location, the movement and the appearance, I do think it is cause by the LP complex (all the genes) as opposed to splash, sabino or what have you. I don't see them on non Apps... so that lends more to that theory.

The suppression theory is fairly simple as it is such a new theory and is not very detailed at this point. Sara was the one who brought it to my attention originally, but I didn't think much of it at the time. After a long while of looking at thousands of horses I have really begun to think it's true.

The theory is simply that ermine spots and distal spots (distals even more so than ermines IME) are an indication of the presence of some type of white suppression gene(s). The theory is most obvious on tobianos IMO. A tobiano who is FULLLL of ermines and distals is almost *always* a very minimal tobiano. This guy is one of my favorite examples (I'm sure you've seen him, but just as a refresher):
[img]http://www.lazygperformancehorses.com/g…]
Now you being from the miniature world may not consider that minimal, but I'm only talking big horses. This is really quite minimal for a big horse not carrying frame.

Anyway, back to the theory. Evidence has shown that horses marked like the one above who have lots of ermines and distals are often both very minimal, and they tend to throw very minimal offspring on a consistent basis. One thing to note that may lend further credibility to the theory is the traditional minimal tobianos. I have come across quite a few minimal tobianos with little to no ermines or distals. What do they produce? "Normal", full on tobianos. I do believe there is a difference between a minimal tobiano with the leg spots and one without. The one without is just typical pattern variation. The one with is being restricted.

I think part of Sara's original thought process was that the spots were caused by the white suppression gene trying to take the white off of the leg, but only able to do it in spots. Therefor it would stand to reason, the more spots, the more minimal the horse is likely to be. I have found this very true in most cases.

Which genes does the suppression suppress? I don't know. I have seen evidence of it on every pattern so I suspect it is a blanket white suppression.
How does it pass? I don't know. Some suppressed horses seem to throw an equal number of suppressed horses to non suppressed horses whereas others only throw suppression so it may be a simple dominant.

Some horses could safely be called "erasers". I've known a couple of stallions and a mare who were considered erasers. They all had very, very little white and what white they had was nearly obliterated by ermines. When bred to horses who were both LOUD and tended to produce LOUD, the foals would have virtually no white at all. They literally were called "white killers" or "erasers". This is very strong evidence of some gene at work preventing the normal expression of a pattern IMO.

Now some people have called me crazy (what's new?) because they then show me 30 photos of moderate to loud tobiano who have ermines (admittedly not many, and little to no distals) and say "how can this horse be suppressed?" Well, how I see it is that we have NO way of knowing how loud that horse would have been without the suppression. He may look loud now, but he may have been even LOUDER. I also find it very rare to see fully expressed tobianos (all white with a solid head) with any ermines or distals. I don't think they can express that loudly if the suppression gene is there.

I may have gotten too involved there, but I think I needed to get it out of my head. :lol:

Sara Fri, 05/22/2009 - 15:10

I believe that the RPSI stallion Inbegriff could be considered an eraser. He is the sire of Isabelle (who has many ermines) and grandsire of Solo (just born, don't know about ermines yet but very minimal). Isabelle's dam and Solo's sire are both loud sabinos.

lipigirl Fri, 05/22/2009 - 16:00

Wow that was interesting stuff ! thanks ACC.

Edited to add -

So my mare has some and I believe that the only white gene prevalent in the PF is Rabicano she also has a small skunk tail but not other roaning - is this a minimal suppression of that then - see her hinds, sorry the pic is not good (she didn't appreicate Alan on her !! LOL !)

[img]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/…]

dakotakdq Fri, 05/22/2009 - 23:20

My mare has minimal white and those black spots on all four feet all the way around and even to a sabino QH with bald face threw a very minimal foal.
I never knew what the spots were until this thread, thanks guys!! :)
(From top to bottom)
Her colt, sire and dam.

dakotakdq Fri, 05/22/2009 - 23:23

Her 2007 colt to a plain bay cutting stallion with same markings as her.
Is his black triangle on hind sock the same a black ermine spot?? It dosnt join his his black leg, it stops in the white area.

NZ Appaloosas Fri, 05/22/2009 - 23:55

[quote="PamelaTX"][quote="NZ Appaloosas"]http://www.appaloosa.com/registration/i…

Lightning Marks: Irregular white markings on the legs that do not contact the hoof.
:angel
Diane[/quote]

[color=#8000BF][b]Lightning marks...[/b][/color]
http://www.sawyercreek.com/images/lcacl…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sawyercreek.com/neontrot.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]

Ayup, that's John and Julie Kreider's place, and a couple of their foals. Not sure if those would Hi Tech foals, but most likely from their current stallion...Did you link those from their current foal crop?

Diane

NZ Appaloosas Sat, 05/23/2009 - 00:00

[quote="accphotography"]I agree that's it's unlikely those foals will keep those clearly marked lightning strikes, but just based on the location, the movement and the appearance, I do think it is cause by the LP complex (all the genes) as opposed to splash, sabino or what have you. I don't see them on non Apps... so that lends more to that theory.
[/quote]

Uhm, there's nearly 3 years between the two photos of Casey...and while the back ones aren't quite as white, they're still pretty evident.

Diane

PamelaTX Sat, 05/23/2009 - 00:24

[quote="NZ Appaloosas"][quote="PamelaTX"][quote="NZ Appaloosas"]http://www.appaloosa.com/registration/i…

Lightning Marks: Irregular white markings on the legs that do not contact the hoof.
:angel
Diane[/quote]

[color=#8000BF][b]Lightning marks...[/b][/color]
http://www.sawyercreek.com/images/lcacl…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sawyercreek.com/neontrot.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]

Ayup, that's John and Julie Kreider's place, and a couple of their foals. Not sure if those would Hi Tech foals, but most likely from their current stallion...Did you link those from their current foal crop?

Diane[/quote]

[color=#8000BF][b]
The loud colt is 1 of theirs & the other is by an outside mare but both are by their stud...Ira ( I believe )[/b][/color]