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Dun???

http://members7.boardhost.com/VADARE/thread/1241572332.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [color=#8000BF][b]Check out the countershading on this colt!! Very dark & goes down into the tail.[/b][/color]

Sara Fri, 05/15/2009 - 14:37

My friend with the dun mare says her mare's dorsal stripe is almost black but not quite, like dark chocolate. So that's probably why I remember it being black.

PamelaTX Sun, 05/17/2009 - 00:14

[color=#8000BF][b]I think Jackie's reddish brown...will have to try & new pics of her dorsal & post them. She just turned a year old May 2nd.[/b][/color]

rabbitsfizz Sun, 05/17/2009 - 04:10

I can't honestly remember ever having seen a Dun with a red eel stripe, but I think we would be arguing semantics about this.
To the eye, a lot of these stripes appear black or dark, and that is the problem, I think.
I had never considered this as a possibility, so it is possible I am seeing what I expect to see....I think the hairs of the stripe would have to be DNA tested Red to convince me, if this has been done, I am happy to accept it, if we are going on visual opinion, I am not.
I have only ever bred one bay dun, and she had a dark brown to black dorsal, BUT looking at the pictures on DCS and knowing that her dam was Brown (visually) it is possible that she was a Brown Dun, if you accept that Brown exists...it is a little worrying to have colours based on the premise that something unproven does in fact exist, and I know the owner of this site is a big Brown "supporter, but even so.......

accphotography Sun, 05/17/2009 - 13:50

Honestly Rabbit, saying a horse is brown is no different than saying a horse is splash.

Also, the word red is slightly open for interpretation when it comes to horse color. The stripe would *not* test red as the horse is bay. The stripe should look the color a bay would be (countershading included) if it weren't dun.

rabbitsfizz Sun, 05/17/2009 - 14:43

I may have misunderstood then.....
I find this very confusing, why call it red when they don't mean red...it doesn't look red, I have never seen a Bay Dun with a chestnut dorsal, why confuse the issue??
A Bay Dun with a dark Bay dorsal, I can understand!!!
My Bay Dun's dorsal looked black, it might have been very dark Bay but it looked black :lol:

And saying a horse is brown is a bit different from saying it is Spalsh, as we have proof Splash exists.....

accphotography Sun, 05/17/2009 - 15:00

Actually you misunderstood even a little more than that. I'm not saying I've seen an ADULT bay dun with a red dorsal. I'm saying MOST of the bay dun foals I've seen (as young foals) have had RED dorsal stripes. DCS's site shows several bay dun foals with red stripes.

As adults, IME, the stripes are the color a bay would have been had he not been dun.

Jordie0587 Mon, 05/18/2009 - 02:21

I'm wondering wtf she's going on about here

[quote]The agouti gene can not be 'hidden' a red horse can have it yes. But it has to have a black gene to attach to, to put what she said where I can explain it, lol! [/quote]

rabbitsfizz Mon, 05/18/2009 - 06:46

[quote="accphotography"]Actually you misunderstood even a little more than that. I'm not saying I've seen an ADULT bay dun with a red dorsal. I'm saying MOST of the bay dun foals I've seen (as young foals) have had RED dorsal stripes. DCS's site shows several bay dun foals with red stripes.

As adults, IME, the stripes are the color a bay would have been had he not been dun.[/quote]
Nothing new there, then :laugh1
No, most definitely not, in that case.
All the Bay Dun foals I have seen have had the same coloured dorsal as their manes and tails......I think the US has a different approach to Dun to the rest of the world, truly!!!
I have occasionally seen Duns with leg stripes over here, but they are so unusual that they are called "Zebra Duns"

Sara Mon, 05/18/2009 - 11:34

[quote="Jordie0587"]I'm wondering wtf she's going on about here

[quote]The agouti gene can not be 'hidden' a red horse can have it yes. But it has to have a black gene to attach to, to put what she said where I can explain it, lol! [/quote][/quote]

I'm not sure where that quotation came from but I think whoever said it means that you can not tell if a red based horse has agouti but they can carry it and pass it on. In order for agouti to show, however, the horse must be black based and then agouti turns black to bay.

Sara Mon, 05/18/2009 - 11:37

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]All the Bay Dun foals I have seen have had the same coloured dorsal as their manes and tails......I think the US has a different approach to Dun to the rest of the world, truly!!!
I have occasionally seen Duns with leg stripes over here, but they are so unusual that they are called "Zebra Duns"[/quote]

No wonder I was confused about dun then, since this forum is my main exposure to duns!

I really like the way it looks... I'd love to get it in my herd without having to use Quarter Horses or the dun Welsh lines present here.

accphotography Mon, 05/18/2009 - 14:51

[quote="rabbitsfizz"][quote="accphotography"]Actually you misunderstood even a little more than that. I'm not saying I've seen an ADULT bay dun with a red dorsal. I'm saying MOST of the bay dun foals I've seen (as young foals) have had RED dorsal stripes. DCS's site shows several bay dun foals with red stripes.

As adults, IME, the stripes are the color a bay would have been had he not been dun.[/quote]
Nothing new there, then :laugh1
No, most definitely not, in that case.
All the Bay Dun foals I have seen have had the same coloured dorsal as their manes and tails......I think the US has a different approach to Dun to the rest of the world, truly!!!
I have occasionally seen Duns with leg stripes over here, but they are so unusual that they are called "Zebra Duns"[/quote]

Well see, when I see the red dorsal stripes, they very often have red (or reddish, especially the mane) manes and tails too. :rofl I know that sounds odd, but I've seen many offspring of a particular dunskin stallion who LOOK every bit red dun (everybody's always saying "isn't that a red dun?") but the stallion is tested and proven homozygous black.

Sara Mon, 05/18/2009 - 15:01

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]How about a US shetland??[/quote]

I've considered it. I don't need any new breeding stock in the near future but it's on my list of maybes.

NZ Appaloosas Mon, 05/18/2009 - 20:57

:bounce :bounce :toast :HB :HB Go the Apps! :HB

Diane

Monsterpony Mon, 05/18/2009 - 21:03

Fjords are also a good way to get some dun. :D

Sara Mon, 05/18/2009 - 23:49

yeah, dressage and eventing... Fjords can be athletic for sure. I guess I've never gone on one of my "dressage and hunters are totally different" tangents here though. I could do it now but would probably delete it in the morning as one of my drunken rants.

Monsterpony Tue, 05/19/2009 - 00:04

I know dressage and hunters are different, but several of my fjords are daisy cutters and one of them went on to be a hunter pony.

NZ Appaloosas Tue, 05/19/2009 - 23:57

[quote="Sara"]Guys, guys, HUNTER ponies![/quote]

You really CAN get a hunter-style app...and not breed hunter, at that. Just have to look a tad harder, sometimes (or farther afield, say like in... :mrgreen: )

Diane

rabbitsfizz Wed, 05/20/2009 - 06:12

Fjords and Haflingers are dual purpose draught ponies.
It is possible to force them into another mould, but highly unlikely that the offspring will breed true to this, and I would loathe to see them bred lighter boned, that just would not be right!!!
And I am very very sorry to say this but I have yet to see a POA that I would want in my filed, let alone breed form it.
Ditto RMH.
OK, bring on the avalanche of pictures of beautiful POA's and RMH's!!! :rofl

lipigirl Wed, 05/20/2009 - 06:57

When I bred Lipis a friend of mine also mixed the Fjords with the Lipis - they were ramarkably cute and steady but versatile ponies.

Sara Wed, 05/20/2009 - 09:05

Doesn't stuff like that make the Lipizzan and Fjord people tear their hair out? I thought cross breeding was very frowned on.

anyway, I'll stick to what I know with my lighter bred ponies. I doubt I could sell anything drafty to a real hunter barn and after having a Haflinger in the barn I have to say I wouldn't want draft blood in my ponies anyway. It's just a personal preference, not to step on anyone's toes here... draft horses just aren't my thing.

TwinCreeksFarm Wed, 05/20/2009 - 16:13

Rabbit, I know of some POA's that are very nice ponies! Do you have any over there? I have one in mind in particular that I'm certain you would love, but I don't have a picture. :?

Sara Wed, 05/20/2009 - 16:30

I've seen a few pretty nice POAs. Can anything small and Appy-ish still get hardshipped into POA? If so, I think the nice ones I've seen were probably mostly Welsh.

Of all the breeds mentioned so far, Appaloosa or POA would probably be my most likely choice for introducing dun. (I mistyped the first time and wrote fun instead of dun! :lol: )

accphotography Wed, 05/20/2009 - 18:09

You did say no Morgan?

You don't like the dun Welsh that are out there?

You might find a few "Quarter Ponies". Whatever they are.

Sara Wed, 05/20/2009 - 18:49

"Quarter Ponies" are anything you want them to be! Basically if it's short, it isn't gaited and doesn't look like an Arab they'll give it papers.

I just had a "duh" moment in the car. I can get dun into my herd with a Mustang. One of my old trainers had a range-caught mare who she turned into a champion pony jumper, and I have a friend with a Mustang x TB mare who has turned into quite the cute little hunter. Sadly she grew over pony size. Of course not all Mustangs are very nice so it would have to be a good one.

TwinCreeksFarm Wed, 05/20/2009 - 21:21

You could do the same with an Appendix also! :mrgreen:

accphotography Wed, 05/20/2009 - 21:27

Hey an Appendix Quarter Horse could be a good find if you could find one dun in the body style you're looking for.