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"Dominant bay" vs. other terms

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Gander
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"Dominant bay" vs. other terms
In the TB world (at least with people/editors I know), when a bay/dark bay TB stallion throws nothing but similar colors - or grey - he's called a "dominant bay." I (think I) know that's not an accurate term, breeding-wise, as it's really a homozygous black with bay (agouti gene) added onto it.... (yes? no?) Someone also mentioned that such a stallion cannot produce a black foal. Is that accurate? Basically, in layman's term, can such a horse not produce chestnut foals or black foals? Are there any other colors they can't create, keeping in mind TB breeding has simple terms like white, black, palomino, dark bay/brown, grey/roan, bay, chestnut?
RiddleMeThis
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

To the first yes that is correct.

And to the second that is also correct. There are some bay stallion who cannot produce a black. They are homozygous for black and also homozygous for Agouti (the gene that turns black into bay). They will always pass E and A making the horse bay (in the absence of other modifying genes.)

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Gander
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

To the first yes that is correct.

And to the second that is also correct. There are some bay stallion who cannot produce a black. They are homozygous for black and also homozygous for Agouti (the gene that turns black into bay). They will always pass E and A making the horse bay (in the absence of other modifying genes.)

Thanks so much, RiddleMeThis!

The TB stallion in question (Say Florida Sandy) has never been tested regarding color (no surprise). Nearly all of his foals are bay or dark bay/brown, with just a few greys. No chestnuts, no blacks.

With TB terminology, and how rarely the Jockey Club allows the word "Black," I'm sure most TBs will never produce a single black foal anyway...no matter what the genetics or visual look of the foal. ;)

Thanks again!

accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Yes it is very possible. He has almost 3 generations of all black based horses so it's definitely possible. He may be either homozygous black and heterozygous agouti or homozygous black and homozygous agouti. You might not know due to the way TJC registers blacks and that the mares could be contributing agouti.

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Gander
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

You're awesome. Wish I had half your knowledge (or, well, more than that wouldn't be bad, either) ;) ;). Thanks!

rabbitsfizz
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Of course he may be brown :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

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lipigirl
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Of course he may be brown :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

:D :D :D :D :D :laugh1 :laugh1 :laugh1

accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

:laugh1 :laugh1 :laugh1 :rofl :rofl :rofl

I think "brown" is the word of the day. :laugh1

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Jordie0587
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Could somebody explain to me why the JC doesn't register as black? Or why it's *hard* to register black?

I think I'm missing something here lol

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accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Because :sign . :D :hammer A long time ago there was a rule that stated "if you can find a single brown hair anywhere on the horse, it is not black". They stick by it. They also used to say "if it is a mix of red and white hairs it is a roan" and "if it is a mix of black and white hairs it is a gray". :roll: They also didn't recognize any of the cream colors or white. They still don't recognize double dilutes and I'm not sure they even recognize buckskin yet. But as far as the black, it goes back to that "one brown hair" thing. :roll:

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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

THAT is just plain retarded lol.

So *are* there any horses that are JC registered black?

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accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Some, but not many.

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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

99% sure (and I can verify) that JC does have registered cremellos and buckskins, possibly perlinos and smokey blacks as well now.

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accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Well I'm 99% sure there is no double dilute registered as such with the *American* Jockey Club. There IS a smokey black, only one of them. I'm not certain about the buckskin... I had heard they were going to allow them, then last I heard they hadn't yet, so I'm not sure.

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CheyAut
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

I was just coming to say I take that back ;) I read something wrong, not the first time LOL!!! :laugh1

Registries are just... ignorant to color :roll:

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accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Well The Jockey Club is in a league all it's own IMO. They freely admit they KNOW about these colors and acknowledge them, but they refuse to change. They had someone from UC Davis speak to them at a meeting once (at someone within TJC's request) and teach them about these colors, but it did no good. Their response "we're not a color registry".

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CheyAut
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Ah well. I never rely on registry colors for registered animals anyhow... really can't do that with minis!

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Krickette
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

oh lord that reminds me....i went thru a discussion with someone about apps this weekend and she was talking about how much she disliked solid color apps because they don't belong, and it's not fair that people can show them in the same classes at shows, etc. i was just....*facepalm*

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accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Thus why I always in turn say "and that is why your breed is a COLOR breed, not a blood breed or even a skill breed". That always makes 'em mad... but seriously, they're disrespecting their OWN breed.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

oh lord that reminds me....i went thru a discussion with someone about apps this weekend and she was talking about how much she disliked solid color apps because they don't belong, and it's not fair that people can show them in the same classes at shows, etc. i was just....*facepalm*

Was this by any chance a "foundation" breeder?

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Thus why I always in turn say "and that is why your breed is a COLOR breed, not a blood breed or even a skill breed". That always makes 'em mad... but seriously, they're disrespecting their OWN breed.

Nope, it's a breed with a colour preference. If it was just a colour breed, there'd be no pedigree/lineage requirements, and any horse that sported an Lp pattern would be granted full rights. As of the last BoD meeting, horses like RIS and other AQHA's that might sport a blanket are not getting ApHC papers, altho' they are going to be allowed breeding rights, as an exception to the ApHC rule that says (in effect) "no AQHA with the words "excessive white" on its certificate of registration can be used for breeding". Rule 204(B)(2)(a)(1) of the 2009 Rule Book.

Diane

accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Well to me if a breed does not give the same privileges to horses of ALL colors, they are a color breed. (Yes, I also see Friesians as a color breed, despite their pure blood.)

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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

ApHC does give most of the same privileges, solid horses just have some extra steps they need to take, i.e., be bred to a patterned horse, not a solid horse.

Diane

RiddleMeThis
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Well to me if a breed does not give the same privileges to horses of ALL colors, they are a color breed. (Yes, I also see Friesians as a color breed, despite their pure blood.)

Agreed.

Feel the same about AQHA and APHA as well.

If a horse cannot do EVERYTHING another horse can specifically because of the color they are or are not, then you have a color breed.

And any appy patterned horse CAN be registered and shown with ApHC provided that they are spayed/gelded.

So, yep, color breed.

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Morgan
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

I have a secret pot to combine the AQHA and APHA. :twisted: :lol:

accphotography
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Re: "Dominant bay" vs. other terms

Yup we were just talking about that on another forum. Coloreds automatically go into APHA, solids into AQHA. LOL

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