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dog color genetics????????? anybody?

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Is anyone here familiar with the dog color genetics? I raise Rat Terriers and I have a choclate/ & white and blue/tan & white and a sable/tan & white. I looked at a website about it once but it was alot to rap my brain around, to me horse color genetics is much easier. So far all I understand is that the chocolate is a form of black or black based like a bay horse and sable is dominant and blue is a black dilute. My male is the chocolate and so far have only bred him to my sable/white female and with those 2 I just get black/tan & white and the sable & white. I know when I breed my chocolate/tri male to my blue tri female I should get blue/tri, choc/tri and pearl/tri and problably black/tri also. Here is some link to pics of them on my website, I just had a litter yesterday. http://rodeoratdogs.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8347979" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://rodeoratdogs.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=9077899" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://rodeoratdogs.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8348343" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Heather Mon, 05/24/2010 - 16:20

Dogs are Black and Red(fawn/tan) and liver(recessive) Black dogs can carry liver but liver is liver, bb , Black/tan dogs are BB or Bb(carry recessive liver) . Bi-color is A/t or A/s ....A/y is tan... there are various other modifers but dogs really are simple of all species..

rodeoratdogs Mon, 05/24/2010 - 16:31

[quote="Heather"]Dogs are Black and Red(fawn/tan) and liver(recessive) Black dogs can carry liver but liver is liver, bb , Black/tan dogs are BB or Bb(carry recessive liver) . Bi-color is A/t or A/s ....A/y is tan... there are various other modifers but dogs really are simple of all species..[/quote]

Ok so is my sable red and my choc liver? To put it more plainly? Will my sable dog never have liver with my liver dog since she only has one black parent and one sable parent, her father that was sable was in a litter with other chocolate(liver) but unless she carries liver then she won't pass it, is that right?
I heard that choc is not a dilute but a form of black like a bay horse is that incorrect? Before I read that I assumed that is was a dilute because it looks it, but I was told otherwize.

Dogrose Mon, 05/24/2010 - 16:48

Chocolate is a different, brown, form of eumelanin, it is recessive to black
Black BB
Chocolate bb
Black carrying chocolate Bb

Blue is a recessive dilution of black, normal black eumelanin but less of it giving a blue colour
Blue dd
Black carrying blue Dd

They are different genes and need to be calculated individually.
So you can have a black carrying neither
BBDD
A black carrying chocolate but not blue
BbDD
A black carrying blue but not chocolate
BBDd
A blue carrying chocolate
Bbdd
A chocolate carrying blue
bbDd
A black carrying blue and chocolate
BbDd

So if you breed a blue that doesn't carry chocolate to a chocolate that doesn't carry blue you will get 100% black that carry both blue and chocolate.

The two genes expressing together will give a light fawnish grey called lilac, lavender or sometimes fawn in dogs e.g. in Dobermanns.
Lilac
bbdd

This is all seperate to the agouti status of the dog, I'm not sure about agouti genetics in dogs. Chocolate isn't anything like bay in horses, it isn't a dilute, it is a different base colour caused by an alteration in the development of eumelanin pigment.

rodeoratdogs Mon, 05/24/2010 - 16:57

[quote="Dogrose"]Chocolate is a different, brown, form of eumelanin, it is recessive to black
Black BB
Chocolate bb
Black carrying chocolate Bb

Blue is a recessive dilution of black, normal black eumelanin but less of it giving a blue colour
Blue dd
Black carrying blue Dd

They are different genes and need to be calculated individually.
So you can have a black carrying neither
BBDD
A black carrying chocolate but not blue
BbDD
A black carrying blue but not chocolate
BBDd
A blue carrying chocolate
Bbdd
A chocolate carrying blue
bbDd
A black carrying blue and chocolate
BbDd

So if you breed a blue that doesn't carry chocolate to a chocolate that doesn't carry blue you will get 100% black that carry both blue and chocolate.

The two genes expressing together will give a light fawnish grey called lilac, lavender or sometimes fawn in dogs e.g. in Dobermanns.
Lilac
bbdd

This is all seperate to the agouti status of the dog, I'm not sure about agouti genetics in dogs. Chocolate isn't anything like bay in horses, it isn't a dilute, it is a different base colour caused by an alteration in the development of eumelanin pigment.[/quote]

Ok, I'm fairly confident that my choc male and blue female each carry the other since the choc had blue litter mates and the blue had choc litter mates, and then they should have pearl (lilac) too right?

Dogrose Mon, 05/24/2010 - 17:01

You can't always be certain from the littermate's colour, only from the parent's colour, not all the babies will inherit the genes unless the parents are homozygous recessive for them.

rodeoratdogs Mon, 05/24/2010 - 17:03

[quote="Dogrose"]You can't always be certain from the littermate's colour, only from the parent's colour, not all the babies will inherit the genes unless the parents are homozygous recessive for them.[/quote]

hmmm ok, thanks for all the info, I appriciate it.

Heather Mon, 05/24/2010 - 18:07

That pup looks like a A/y (sable tan) but has a pattern like a A/s that is like a tan bi colored, but not liver. There is also possibility that they sooty ness is on the E allele. If i recall correctly , its just like having extreme "mask".

rodeoratdogs Mon, 05/24/2010 - 18:44

[quote="Heather"]That pup looks like a A/y (sable tan) but has a pattern like a A/s that is like a tan bi colored, but not liver. There is also possibility that they sooty ness is on the E allele. If i recall correctly , its just like having extreme "mask".[/quote]

What is E allele? :sign ......so is it a sable carrying liver maybe, is that what you mean by patterned like A/s but sable?

rodeoratdogs Mon, 05/24/2010 - 18:46

[quote="Heather"]Agouti is simple

A/y is sable
A/t is bi-colored
A/s is diluted bi-color ( not liver)

A/y can carry A/t ,but A/t cannot carry A/y .[/quote]

A/t cannot carry A/y because A/y is dominant?

Heather Mon, 05/24/2010 - 19:14

yes over a/t

example , i use to show breed JRTS

A tri bred to tri is 100% tri ( bi colored a/t)

A tan wht bred to tri will produce (depending on hiden recessive of the tan)

so
a/y a/y x a/t a/t = 100 % tan

a/y a/t x a/t a/t = 50% tan 50% tri or is it 75/25% LOL BUT YOU GET THE IDEA

this is never possible a/t a/y <--cant happen

Heather Mon, 05/24/2010 - 19:20

ugh, your scrapin my cob webs on dogs, i havent thought about it for long time, E is responsible for masking and brindle and something else, i forget , Ebr=brindle? If i recall right and e??? something is masking it occurs in JRts too, and would sometimes also show more on the tan bodies too like a sootyness.

T is ticking

S is your white patterns

S/i
S/w
S/p
and think there is one more,these will dictate how much white is expressed.

Heather Mon, 05/24/2010 - 19:25

sable/tan and Bi colored can both carry liver and show no evidence of it. Bb , you wont know till you breed to another Bb.

So a tan bred to tri can have liver

a/y a/y Bb x a/t a/t Bb = 50% tan 50% liver.

a/y a/t Bb x a/t a/t Bb = 50% liver and 25% tan and 25% tri.. I think lol you get the jist of it if my percentages are off :P

rodeoratdogs Mon, 05/24/2010 - 19:42

[quote="Heather"]yes over a/t

example , i use to show breed JRTS

A tri bred to tri is 100% tri ( bi colored a/t)

A tan wht bred to tri will produce (depending on hiden recessive of the tan)

so
a/y a/y x a/t a/t = 100 % tan

a/y a/t x a/t a/t = 50% tan 50% tri or is it 75/25% LOL BUT YOU GET THE IDEA

this is never possible a/t a/y <--cant happen[/quote]

OK OK OK :lol: I think the light bulb is starting to go on.

Here is my male he is choc/tri out of 2 black tri parents so his parents must have both carried choc.
[img]http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy13…]

Then my sable white female here with her pups, her parents one was sable/white like her and the other parent a black tri.
The only colors Her and my choc male have are the black/tri and the sable white, but all shades of sable/white from light to dark and some with the mask, those are probably sable carrying tri,and maybe the choc tri since the sire is?but they dont produce choc because she doesn't carry it, do I get it?

[img]http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy13…]
[img]http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy13…]
[img]http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy13…]

rodeoratdogs Mon, 05/24/2010 - 20:50

Ok, and then when I breed the Choc/tri male with my blue/tri female they have %100 tri but will only have both colors if they both carry each others, but say for example if he only carries black and choc then they will only have black/tri and choc/tri and they could have the lilac too? I'm not sure if she carries black though because her sire was choc/tri and her mother was blue/tri.