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Do Shires Carry Creme??

was just forwarded this http://virginiaequestrian.com/main.cfm?action=Classifieds&sub=view&ID=4…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they call her silver buckskin...but just say she was tested at UCDavis as one copy of creme, no mention of silver so I'm guessing maybe they are calling the frosting the silver here? but I didn't know shires could have creme in them....and at any rate...they say she is the only reg. shire with creme [quote]This mare is the only registered full Shire that is UC Davis tested carries creme gene[/quote] but she had to get creme from someone? and that someone had to have been a reg. shire if she's a full reg. shire, right? honestly..i've only ever seen grey shires, black shires and bay shires I think...

TheRedHayflinger Mon, 07/06/2009 - 19:25

thanks...i'm on my laptop, which is mainly an internet/drawing machine for me and saving pictures and uploading makes it want to cry...lol

yeah..wasn't sure about silver since they didn't mention testing for it in the ad, just creme, but it is light-ish..

and i didn't think about grey or black hiding creme honestly...but also...you think one might have popped up before now...lol

accphotography Mon, 07/06/2009 - 21:19

I don't see silver at all, but I would be suspicious of gray. Why are they saying no gray?

I've never heard of cream in Shires. I wonder if she's PVd.

Maigray Mon, 07/06/2009 - 21:57

I have never heard of one. I did some color research on them for a project not too long ago, and I know the registries don't list cream variants either. The mare looks suspicously grey to me. I would look for confirmation of pedigree first and see the actual test results on the color, then be looking through her pedigree for a fence jumper. Then, if she is from a grey line, there is the (rare) possibility it actually did slip in somewhere some time back and has carried forward, masked by grey all this time.

lipigirl Tue, 07/07/2009 - 04:48

I think grey too as I have never seen it in Shires but who knows !!

Swinghorse - love your Avatar BTW !..is that you?

lillith Tue, 07/07/2009 - 05:38

The black base seems more common in shires than the red but there is enough agouti around that this should have been noticed before if creme was present i can't see the registry accepting creme, they are funny enough about excess white in shires. I'm not sure how strict they are on genetic testing for parentage though, but as an endangered breed they are pretty hot on keeping their gene pool as close to 'type' as possible.

Maigray Tue, 07/07/2009 - 08:14

The UK registry doesn't even allow chestnut or roan and say that "no good stallion should have large splashes of white on the body."

horsegen Tue, 07/07/2009 - 12:39

Davis has a test for gray, so the mare may have been tested for it as well. The way the ad states "no gray gene" makes me think that they did. I don't think it sounds like they tested for silver--that's probably just their way of describing the mane frosting.

rabbitsfizz Tue, 07/07/2009 - 13:54

With the number of Bays around if there had been genuinely acquired Cream it would have shown by now, same with Silver.
This sort of thing drives me NUTS!!!
Ooh lookit the "rare" horsey what is worth lots and lots of MONEY!!!!
Agh!!!!! :hammer :BH :BH :hammer

TheSwingHorse Tue, 07/07/2009 - 15:04

[quote="lipigirl"]I think grey too as I have never seen it in Shires but who knows !!

Swinghorse - love your Avatar BTW !..is that you?[/quote]

Yes. :3

TheRedHayflinger Fri, 05/13/2011 - 10:08

and update to this...found the mare again while looking for her for a friend to post elsewhere

http://tintagelandalusians.com/mares_ta…

the dam is a smokey black (found her here: http://apdhorses.com/mares.htm Jane's Prize One)

http://apdhorses.com/jolie.htm has a foal pic of Jolie

the Tintagel site gives an explanation of why she is buckskin (and the dam is smokey black)

[quote]Well as it turns out many, many decades ago the AHSA allowed a breed up program due to the scarcity of Shires in the country. This allowed mares of unknown parentage that fit the breed description to apply for registration. Mares had to be bred back to registered Shire stallions and only fillies could be kept as breeders. [/quote]

Daylene Alford Fri, 05/13/2011 - 15:09

That is very interesting. So you could eaily have mare that was gray with...well anything underneath. In this case it was cream.

rabbitsfizz Sat, 05/14/2011 - 05:57

So, basically it is not a Shire?
Shires have never had Cream and have always been bay or black +/- grey, why not just leave well enough alone?
For once!

Daylene Alford Sat, 05/14/2011 - 07:52

It not that unusual for breeds that are imported to allow outbreeding to some extent. QH's currently do this in Australia with Stock Horses. It has to do with how expensive it can be to import enough animals to avoid heavy inbreeding.

RiddleMeThis Sun, 05/15/2011 - 12:29

Shes registered Shire. For all intents and purposes she IS shire. She will be bred to Shires and have Shire offspring. She IS Shire.

NZ Appaloosas Sun, 05/15/2011 - 19:26

I can see how the creme would be "hidden"...that mare looks like a dark bay, and since everyone knows creme isn't in shires, a funny shade of bay is the colour of dam--get enough of those going on, add in grey, and there you go, hidden creme.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas Sun, 05/15/2011 - 19:26

I can see how the creme would be "hidden"...that mare looks like a dark bay, and since everyone knows creme isn't in shires, a funny shade of bay is the colour of dam--get enough of those going on, add in grey, and there you go, hidden creme.

Diane

RiddleMeThis Mon, 05/16/2011 - 13:11

In reply to by Daylene Alford

[quote=rabbitsfizz]Her offspring would not be eligible for the Mother stud book, which means they are not purebred.[/quote]
And why is that?

I also personally disagree with that completely, no matter the reason.

LesliKathman Thu, 06/23/2011 - 08:40

The Shire registries in both countries have Grading Registers. That is how they ended up with a buckskin, because the original halfbred mare, +A Ranch Molly, was a palomino. (The subsequent generations up until this mare were all black.) Molly also had a full sister, also palomino, that was registered. Her other siblings were sorrels like her sire.

The way the ASHA and SHS Grading Registers work, after enough crosses to registered stallions, you end up with a fully registered Shire. She is legitimate, and would be (assuming her color was not invoked as a reason to remove her) in the mother stud book as well. That is always a possibility with breeds that have Grading Registers and no explicit restrictions on coloring.

For what it is worth, there were a number of dilute (cream or dun... in many cases there is no way to know which) mares registered in the early Shire stud books. In fact, with few exceptions most of the early British stud books have a few cream/dun entries. Even Cleveland Bays once had what were probably dun horses, if you go back far enough.

I've had a few people ask me why on earth I have so much registry information in the upcoming horse breed color books. With some of them, the section on the stud book history (which leads each breed chapter) is pages and pages long. This sort of situation is exactly why registry structure is so important to breed color. Grading registers are the back door that weird stuff can get in, and often all that stops that from happening is tradition and peer pressure. We could have tobiano Shires once again through this same route, after all. I doubt that would happen, because with negative sentiments (and rivalry) about Gypsy Horses, you'd probably goad the registries into enacting rules about the Graded horses. But it could happen as things are now.

RiddleMeThis Thu, 06/23/2011 - 14:57

In reply to by Daylene Alford

[quote=LesliKathman]
The way the ASHA and SHS Grading Registers work, after enough crosses to registered stallions, you end up with a fully registered Shire. [/quote]
Ah similar to the Europe/UK TB registry! Interesting!

LesliKathman Fri, 06/24/2011 - 08:59

Yes, that's actually true for many of the European registries. There is a better awareness of population genetics and inbreeding issues over there, and less of an obsession with "purity of the blood" at the expense of the animals themselves.