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DARK SKINNED cremello?!

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TheSwingHorse
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Back on topic, it is super

Back on topic, it is super easy to get a mixup like this... Especially if they don't have testing papers or willing to show.

For instance, my palomino roan (UC Davis tested, have papers, will show :P) has freckles on his boy parts and under his tail. All I would have to do is tell someone I suspect he is champagne to get a rumor going. Then when someone offers to buy him, they bring it up and ask if he's been DNA Typed. Yes! He has been! But for AQHA DNA and for roan only. Then they go on and buy him and advertise him as such. Boom. "Oh, well the previous owners tested him." Yea, but I did not say FOR champagne!

People are shiesty or misinformed. That is my simplest explanation...

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Monsterpony
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TheRedHayflinger

darkest skinned (and he has greenish eyes too) double creme I can think of is a morgan.. Amberfields Desperado. But they only mention the skin around his eyes being darkened
http://www.morgancolors.com/AmberfieldsD...

pic found here: http://www.morgancolors.com/doubledilute...

That looks like mottling that DD can get. I have seen it in person and did a double take on a known cremello. But the original horse posted has solid dark skin, not mottling.

.

lipigirl
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JNFerrigno wrote:LesliKathman
There is already one cremello with dark skin and amber/green eyes out there, and despite the fact that people were just sure the horse could not be what was claimed, he's a popular sire with a statistically significant number of foals - all cream. Would I have said that was possible? No. But there he is, breeding just like what he was claimed to be.

Sunshine? http://newdilutions.com/other/sunshine.htm Since you refuse to give proper information to any questions which ask you to further explain, this is the only horse I can think of, seeing as Ropers Nova is gelded. Neither have dark skin.

That Buckskin looks like it also has silver in it which would answer that question. Glad that everyone is being kind to each other - life is too short not to be. HUGS.x

lipigirl
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JNFerrigno wrote:LesliKathman
There is already one cremello with dark skin and amber/green eyes out there, and despite the fact that people were just sure the horse could not be what was claimed, he's a popular sire with a statistically significant number of foals - all cream. Would I have said that was possible? No. But there he is, breeding just like what he was claimed to be.

Sunshine? http://newdilutions.com/other/sunshine.htm Since you refuse to give proper information to any questions which ask you to further explain, this is the only horse I can think of, seeing as Ropers Nova is gelded. Neither have dark skin.

That Buckskin looks like it also has silver in it which would answer that question. Glad that everyone is being kind to each other - life is too short not to be. HUGS.x

RiddleMeThis
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lipigirl wrote:JNFerrigno
There is already one cremello with dark skin and amber/green eyes out there, and despite the fact that people were just sure the horse could not be what was claimed, he's a popular sire with a statistically significant number of foals - all cream. Would I have said that was possible? No. But there he is, breeding just like what he was claimed to be.

Sunshine? http://newdilutions.com/other/sunshine.htm Since you refuse to give proper information to any questions which ask you to further explain, this is the only horse I can think of, seeing as Ropers Nova is gelded. Neither have dark skin.

That Buckskin looks like it also has silver in it which would answer that question. Glad that everyone is being kind to each other - life is too short not to be. HUGS.x

He also has pink skin everywhere which would NOT be caused by silver though.

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TheRedHayflinger
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Monsterpony
darkest skinned (and he has greenish eyes too) double creme I can think of is a morgan.. Amberfields Desperado. But they only mention the skin around his eyes being darkened
http://www.morgancolors.com/AmberfieldsD...

pic found here: http://www.morgancolors.com/doubledilute...

That looks like mottling that DD can get. I have seen it in person and did a double take on a known cremello. But the original horse posted has solid dark skin, not mottling.

yup...but he's the only one I could even begin to think of, and I go to several various color sites and am on several mailing lists as well...and that's the only one I can even think of, and it's just mottling around the eyes.

TheSwingHorse
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Oh! Maybe the horse she's

Oh! Maybe the horse she's referring to is a model horse? I've been looking in all the wrong places... :(

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lipigirl
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Sorry yes RMT, I didn't read

Sorry yes RMT, I didn't read the test results properly....too much on my mind, thanks.

lipigirl
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Sorry yes RMT, I didn't read

Sorry yes RMT, I didn't read the test results properly....too much on my mind, thanks.

TheSwingHorse
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The people with the black

The people with the black filly still haven't gotten back to me. =\ I'd love to see her tested.

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critterkeeper
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Cremellos w/dark skin

I do know that cremellos do have a tendency to darken when exposed to the sun 24/7, but from my personal experience it doesn't turn as dark as the OPs example. I know Luna's eyelids are more of a dark tan during the summer and he also gets "freckles" around his muzzle, but by mid-winter his skin is back to dazzling pink... :grin:

Kylene "A dog has lots of friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue." ~ Anonymous

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Amberfields Desperado is most

Amberfields Desperado is most definitely cremello :-) He has over a hundred offspring, all cream dilutes of some flavor.

The original horse posted to the thread looks like he could be cremello as well. The freckling does happen on some of them due to the sun.

Laura Behning
Brookridge Morgans
http://www.brookridgemorgans.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Morgan Colors
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The Silver Dapple Morgans

TheSwingHorse
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I messaged the owned of him

I messaged the owned of him asking about breeding, etc and his color and this was the email I got back:

"Robin,

Halo (Peptocremzemal) has been DNA tested as CrCr by Animal Genetics (I can forward an email that shows test results if desired).
We do realize he is a VERY dark cremello and a lot of people have asked us this same question. I bred him to my palomino mare last year and got a filly colored JUST like him this year that I loved. There was a big debate on her true coloring as well so at 5 days I sent in DNA on her and she also tested cremello. Unfortunately we had her put down at 7 days due to a broken leg that was not repairable. But, she looked just like Halo.
Another lady bred her red dun to Halo and when the filly was born it looked sorrel but was a dark gold by the morning and she is definitely palomino! I can send pics of her if interested in seeing what he produces.

We have also tested Halo for dun, champagne, roan and pearl. All results on those modifiers were negative.

I have a mare that is a daughter of Haidas Little Pep out of a Shining Spark daughter. She is sorrel and is bred to Halo for a 2012 palomino foal.... I am excited to see it!

Please let me know if I can answer any more questions for you.

Kelly
www.2bcuttinghorses.com"

Got a second email saying,

"I was also going to mention (forgot in my last email) that the contract for Halo contains a LCFG, live colored foal guarantee.
If a foal is born and is DNA tested to not have a cream gene, mare owner is entitled to a rebreed the following year (or that season the foal is born).
It just gives peace of mind, and we're comfortable offering that since he is DNA tested as cremello (CrCr)."

I think it'd be interesting to see his foals so I asked to see the photos she offered to send. :)

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Third Peppermint
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That is pretty awesome. I

That is pretty awesome. I would love to get my hands on some really good, high-res pictures of his skin. Perhaps really good pictures, or pictures of him schnozzling a true palomino would make it more obvious?

Thanks for emailing her and getting that info. I'm starting to get suspicious of all of these oddly dark red-based cream horses that keep popping up.

Threnody
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LOL. First it was the grays

LOL. First it was the grays that don't look gray and now it's the red based creams that don't look pali/cremello. I would love it if they send an image of his test results just to see them. Very interesting.

TheSwingHorse
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She forwarded me his test

She forwarded me his test results (can't save it since its not an attachment but:

Test ResultsName: Jodie Neudorf Account#: 105086
Business:
Email: jodieneudorff@hotmail.com
Date Received: 5/29/2009

Horse Name Breed Cream Champagne Pearl
Peptocremzemal Quarter Horse CrCr nn nn
Order Mine Black Quarter Horse nCr - -

Result Guide:Cream Dilution
CrCr Double dilute. Horse tested Homozygous for Cream Dilution (Two copies of the Cream allele). Chestnut is diluted to cremello; bay is diluted to perlino and black is diluted to smoky cream. These colors can be further modified by the actions of other genes.
nCr Dilute. Horse tested Heterozygous for Cream Dilution (One copy of the Cream allele). Chestnut is diluted to palomino; bay is diluted to buckskin and black is diluted to smoky black. These colors can be further modified by the actions of other genes.
nn Non-dilute. Horse tested negative for Cream Dilution. Basic colors are chestnut, bay, black or brown in the absence of other modifying genes.
Champagne Dilution
ChCh Homozygous for Champagne Dilution. Two copies of the Champagne allele detected. Horse will always produce champagne offspring.
nCh Heterozygous for Champagne Dilution. One copy of the Champagne allele detected.
nn Horse tested negative for Champagne Dilution and does not carry the Champagne Dilution gene.

I can forward the actual email to anyone who wants to see the original from Animal Genetics.

Second email:

"Here are a few pics of the filly I referenced earlier that was an outside breeding. This filly is actually a solid ApHC, these pics were taken at 32 days. The owner just loves her.

Kelly
www.2bcuttinghorses.com"

She's referring to the red dun mare bred to him.

And finally, her third email:

"Here are 2 pics of our filly at day 1. She looked, color wise, just like Halo. She also tesetd CrCr. Unfortunately I don't have any pics of her "mature" since we lost her at 1 week of age when she broke her leg.

Kelly
www.2bcuttinghorses.com"

I attached those photos as well.

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colorfan
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Nobody said it would be

Nobody said it would be easy......there is always an exception hey?

I am curious about the color chart that is offered in the link to the stallion picture.

Under black it states that one of the possible foal colors is buckskin. Since the stallion is chestnut,.....oh brain fog, agouti can hide in a chestnut .

When I ride I feel His pleasure.

Heather
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Bottom line, the horse is not

Bottom line, the horse is not cremello. That is a silly idea. I could see if it was even close, but its not.

Threnody
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Well so far the given

Well so far the given evidence is pointing to him being a cremello. I wish I could see the actual paper stating his genotype, but so far with the offspring it's holding up. With more foals in the future we'll see if the trend continues. He is an odd one.

appycowgirl64
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Halo is a cremello!

In the letter that Kelly sent to TheSwingHorse she mentioned the red dun mare that was bred to Halo. I am the owner of the red dun mare and the pics of the ApHC solid palomino filly that she sent to you is from my red dun mare, Comet.
When Boon was born she was very dark in color and I'll attach some foaling and the morning after pics, but she lightened up quite a bit by morning. This filly was from live cover as I took my mare Comet down to Kelly's to breed her to Halo and I actually handled Halo during the breeding process so I know for a fact that he bred my mare twice.
To view Halo is person he is a very dark cremello but he is definitely not a palomino as his coat is much lighter then a palomino and the white on his legs is there but it is not as pronounced as what it would be on a palomino. He also has green eyes and does have light skin around his muzzle and eyes. I honestly think that he may be carrying the sooty gene which would cause his coat to be darker then most cremellos. Kelly sent me a pic of his mom who is a dunalino and she is very dark and has a very dark patches through her mane and tail and I would say that she has a little bit of sooty present to create that coloration in her mane and tail.
At the present time my filly is starting to get cream colored splotches in her coat and she also has some black spots in her coat as well but her mane and tail are definitely white at this point of time.
I will say that Halo was a gentleman during the breeding process and was very nice to be around and to handle. I didn't have to fear for my life being in the box stall with him. He is the epitome of what a stallion should act and behave like. I am thrilled to death with my filly as she is built really nice and I can't wait to get her under saddle once she gets old enough and at 3 months old, her mane is already laying down so I can't wait to see how her mane will grow and hopefully keep growing.

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

appycowgirl64
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Halo is a cremello!

Also, to add to this my mare Comet's genetic equation is ee/AA/Dd so this filly of hers is definitely a palomino and not a red dun or dunalino as she doesn't have a dorsal stripe.I'm not sure on the agouti status of Boon but I do know she is carrying at least one copy of cream and agouti. Kelly has yet to test Halo for agouti so who knows if he is carrying agouti or not. I asked her if she would but she really didn't feel it was necessary since he is a cremello.

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

appycowgirl64
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Pictures of Halo's dam

Here are the 2 pictures of his dam that Kelly emailed me back some time ago.
Here is the link to some pics of his sire. http://www.oasisranchinc.com/YR.html

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

appycowgirl64
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Angel

Also, to add a little more to this, the filly that she lost at a week old, she had her tested for OLWS as well because she did have blue eyes and this filly's dam is an OLWS carrier. The filly tested n/n for OLWS but did test CrCr for cream.
I will say that Kelly is very knowledgeable about equine colors as her and I have had several discussions through the years over equine colors and in fact while I was learning about equine colors, she taught me some things. I also own a bay ApHC mare that is by Kelly's other stud, a bay, Short and Final, who is homozygous for the black gene but is heterozygous for agouti, and out of the same dam that my palomino filly is out of.
Kelly also owns a perlino mare as well.

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

Heather
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The foal look palomino to me,

The foal look palomino to me, someone didnt think it was.?

notrbl2
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OK all, I am the OWNER of

OK all,
I am the OWNER of Peptocremzemal.
I'd post the DNA test, but someone has already done that from an email link I sent, so I see no need. I wish you woudl have asked, I'd have gladly given you permission to share my email or any results. And, while I understand the confusion, instead of calling me ignorant or unknowledgeable, why don't you do what the other poster did and pick up the phone and call or shoot me an email? I'm more than willing to answer any and all questions or provide any and all DNA results we have (which will be posted on our site very soon)

Let me clarify a few things. First, I am very knowledgeable on genetics. I have a degree in biology and have taken several college courses on genetics. I understand what it means to have 2 cream genes versus one, and I understand that MOST cremellos look white. Halo, however, does not. He looks liek a light palomino or a DARK perlino at best. When I first saw him and looked at buying him, I too questioned his coloring and requested DNA test results. These test results will be posted on our site soon, for people that also doubt the genetics side. But, rest assured, I am NOT an ignorant owner promoting a palomino as a cremello. And as Loretta said, in person, you can see the difference in his coat color and a true palominos. Halo's has a different sheen or tint to his coat.

His sire is a yellow roan and if anyone is familiar with YROT (his sire), they will know that many of his foals have that "freckling" from what I have been told.
His dam is a VERY dark palomino dun, I believve the color has been referred to as a claybank dun (not a term I was familiar with, but who she was described to me).
This all being said, I still had doubts after I bought him and saw how dark he is, and I had him also tested for several other factors as I was being told he was probably palomino with a modifier such as pearl, or champagne.
He is tested for roan, dun, champagne, and pearl. ALL of those tests were negative, holding true to his initial testing by Animal Genetics as a cremello.

When I bought him he had bred only a few mares, his first 2 foals were a cremello colt and a balck filly, which I have to assume is a smokey black.

This past year we had 3 foals born that were sired by Halo. One is Loretta's ApHC filly that is obviously a palomino although she was born very dark and lightened by the morning. Second was my paint filly who was out of a palomino mare. KNowing that palomino or cremello were possible, we sent DNA in at 5 days of age so we knew what she was. Unfortunately at 7 days, she was in a freak accident and broke her leg, exposed the bone and had to be put down. We aren't trying to hide anything about her, but there are NO pics of her "maturing" as we had to euthanize her. With the DNA already sent in, it came back as CrCr (cremello) and as negative for lethal white (which her dam carries).
The 3rd foal I JUST got a picture of last week, and it is a 1/2 arabian who is also a palomino.

I do not have a Halo Foals page on our site as I was collecting pics, but now that I have pics of all 3 2011 fillies, that page will also be up asap. I was only waiting on pictures. Please feel free to refer to it at www.2bcuttinghorses.com as soon as it is up.

We have 2 foals of our own coming by Halo next year and an outside mare is also expecting. Those mares are a sorrel, palomino paint, and a blue roan.

I do realize it will take several foal crops for people to understand that Halo is indeed a cremello although he does not look like the typical cremello that people are used to seeing.

Halo is a very nice stallion, a hard to come by color in the cutting bloodlines, and very well mannered. I am very excited for his future foals and his career as a sire. Again, please feel free to contact me with any questions.

notrbl2
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Heather wrote:The foal look

The foal look palomino to me, someone didnt think it was.?

which foal Heather? the palomino ApHC filly out of hte red dun mare? Yes, she is palomino.
Or, the young one that broke its leg and we have no more "mature' pics of? She does look dark, but was colored just like Halo. We tested her as we could not tell if she was palomino and her blue eyes would darken with age, or if she was a dark cremello like her sire. We DNA tested her to prive what color she was and she tested Cr/Cr and therefore we know she is a dark cremello like Halo.

Heather
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Congrats to you on an

Congrats to you on an impressive family of cow horses, my fav. I guess time will tell if there was an error in testing.:) if he were mine i would likely retest with another lab to confirm.

TheSwingHorse
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Kelly, have you had Halo

Kelly, have you had Halo tested for roan as well? I wonder if that is why his legs are so dark compared to the rest of him.

We have a palomino roan stallion and he didn't show signs of it until this last winter but once it started, there was no doubting it. We had him tested and sure enough, he's hetero roan. He also has some extreme freckling on his genitals and under his tail (that I have no photos of but can get later).

His legs.
IMAGE(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x322/parizo_equine/IMG_20110419_165649.jpg)

You can see the roan on his chest and back best in this video as well as how dark his legs are.
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php...

Every time I tell people he's roan as well, they doubt me because sometimes you really can't tell. It is only very noticeable from his dark legs, his white on his chest and minimal amount on his back. His legs are so dark they are almost orange looking.

My friend is in love with your horse and we are planning a breeding to him, hopefully sometime in the next 2 years.

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notrbl2
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Yes, when I bought him I

Yes, when I bought him I thought perhaps his darker legs could be explained by dun factor since his dam carries dun. Figured I might as well test for roan too since I was sending in hair nad his daddy's a roan.
He tested negative for both. As well, he's tested negative for pearl and champagne.

notrbl2
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Another Halo filly, 1/2

Another Halo filly, 1/2 arabian born this year out of a sorrel arabian mare

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