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Cryptorchidism

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CMhorses
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Cryptorchidism
My mini stallion that is 10 years old now is a cryptorchid, and I was wondering if it is worth it to get him gelded. He has basically been confined to a stall for the past two years due to him, and his buddy which was also another stallion, getting loose and getting hurt. He has so far been kicked in the eye and blinded in that eye, he got a bad rope burn/straining on his backlegs from getting a rope around them and numerous bites and kicks from the larger mares. He gets his friend into alot of danger too and they had to be seperated about a year ago after living their whole lives together. My little stallion, Cartwheel, is VERY hard to control. Once we had two people, plus a blindfold, and tried to lead him after he was all riled up from getting loose and he still nearly drug us. Anyway, I could tell stories all day, but mainly I was wanting to know if it was worth it to try to get him gelded at his age and how risky the surgery would be. Also don't get the wrong vibe when I say they get loose. They have jumped their 4ft fence numerous times, they break ropes if you tie them out and whatnot...and of course run straight to the 'big' mares and occasionally to our other stallions, which luckily, do them no harm.
NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Cryptorchidism

My basic rule of thumb is, if one cannot control the stallion, one should not own a stallion...either sell the stallion off or geld him. May (and very likely will) still have behavioural issues, but at least the hormone overdrive will be out of the equation. Our stallion will back off at a voice command, even if he's in the process of jumping up on a mare.

As to the cryptorchid, with as many "fully-featured" stallions out there, a cryptorchid should never be kept for breeding purposes.

Diane

CMhorses
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Well, theres no way I could sell him since he was my first horse, but I am really considering getting the surgery done since in the past few years he has grown increasingly dangerous and uncontrolable. One of his problems is I got him when I was only 8 so possibly some retraining could help now that I know better techniques and whatnot.Also I originally wanted to breed him until I found that out and more than likely he is sterile or has very low sperm count anyway. Shame too since he had good conformation and whatnot.
On the bright side I did a tiny bit of research on the cost and it looked around 200-1000+ which would be well worth it if it meant I could keep him with other horses again.

Edit: I didn't realize but when I said he was hard to control I meant when he is around mares or gets loose. When there is nothing else around he is very gentle towards people and will do what you ask of him.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Cryptorchidism

It's when there are mares around or a stallion gets loose that the training is really needed. I was a bit older than you (15) when I had to learn how to handle stallions that were around mares, late geldings, other stallions, and not in stalls or pens. These were our lesson horses, and well, if we couldn't handle them and ourselves, we were tossed out of the barn. NOT the way I would recommend introducing someone to stallion handling, but it was invaluable learning.

Diane

CMhorses
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Odd that I can handle our paint horse stallion just fine around mares but the little one... :hammer , but it is probably more because of his behavior issues...he will rare if you try to get between or even just try to keep him away from the mares, and well...after that hes loose or dragging you. Keep in mind he is only 38inches.

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critterkeeper
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Re: Cryptorchidism

CMH - I had our cryptoid "stud" fixed when he was 11 yrs old (5 yrs ago) with no ill effects at all. He calmed right down except he still runs the "herd" (and our stud actually lets him ^:)^ ). It only cost me $125 and the vet did it here so he was more comfortable when he woke up from anestesia.

As to the fertility issue - Darwin has numerous little "oops" running around the county. He was so popular we'd come home from work and find him missing - a week later he'd be home again with a fresh bath, trim, grinning from ear to ear and smoking a stoggie... :love (the "borrowers" would even cut chains and padlocks off the barn -- we never collected a dime for his "services" ~x( but the sheriff did put the fear of God into a few neighbors even though we couldn't prove the new foal was Darwins' - looked JUST like him ... :hammer )

Kylene "A dog has lots of friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue." ~ Anonymous

CMhorses
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Hm, I had always wanted to breed him to at least my donkey,because then the genes wouldnt be passed on any further. Only trouble is what if I got a boy with the same problem...would cost alot to get it gelded too. I will probably just get him the surgery.

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supaspot60
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Re: Cryptorchidism

geld him !! its not much of a life being confined to a stall for two years hes probably difficult because he's soooooo frustrated

CMhorses
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Well its not like he is always in a stall. We have a round pen next to the barn and I try to alternate the two boys (cartwheel and leo) in it, and also I try to run them around in the field by hand if its nice out. But yea, its nothing like they used to live in. For about 8 years they lived together in a field next to a field of mares.

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Sara
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Geld. Not only is your guy having to deal with the hormones of being a stallion without any reason or benefit to him, I've been told that a retained testicle is at greater risk for becoming cancerous. I had a colt who was late to descend and when I talked to the vet about gelding him she said that ideally it should be done by age five for behavioral reasons, but I'm sure your stallion will get at least a little more manageable after the surgery.

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CMhorses
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Yea I hope he does calm down. When he is acting 'normal' he is generally well behaved and friendly and whatnot. Even when he lived with Leo they did fine socially together, so I think his main issue is his horomones. With some behavior training I think I could get him to be a totally different horse.
Heres a few pics of him if anyone was wondering what he looked like. His blue eye is a result of jumping his fence and getting in with the QH & Paint mares and getting kicked in the eye, which is not even the worst that has happened to him when hes gotten out.
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Someone said he had interesting roaning.

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Re: Cryptorchidism

Geld. As Sara mentioned, cryptorchids have a very high prevalence of testicular cancer and it is a genetic condition, which means his offspring are likely to inherit the problem. If you aren't planning on breeding him and being a stud is putting himself and others at risk, gelding is the obvious answer.

.

CMhorses
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Re: Cryptorchidism

We weren't planning on breeding him really, but we can only geld him if it does not cost too much.

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Andrea
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Re: Cryptorchidism

He's darling! Such a big attitude for a little package!
He'd be an even cuter gelding ;)
I think he'd be a ton happier as well.

CMhorses
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Well hes not all that small for a mini at least, barely met the limit for AMHR at 38 inches tall. He would make a nice gelding with some retraining and then maby he could live with other horses again and I do miss the days when we could accually cart him without worrying about him going nuts over any other horse...
Man that reminds me of an almost bad cart accident where we were cantering him around the yard at night. We as in, me and my cusin and we were like 11 and 13, but the wheel happened to land in this low spot and then bounced into the air and the whole wheel fell off and well...I fell through the cart and my cusin jumped. Cartwheel kept running even though the shaft was under his leg, no injuries though other than some scrapes to us and well, I was rather tramatized for a few years lol.

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Heidi
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Re: Cryptorchidism

I have had a cryptorchid colt gelded and an adult mini stallion gelded.
Neither had any problems and both had a tremendous attitude improvement afterwards.

I'll tell about the mini, first:
I bought Mickelby with only a $50 downpayment to be a companion for my older (25+yrs) Appy gelding. I made all arrangements sight-unseen (with a lady I used to clean stalls for 2yrs in exchange for board) and brought the mini home. She'd told me his crooked hind leg only needed a small ligament surgery to straighten out. When I got him home and my showed me the x-ray he'd taken, he said there was NO WAY a 'ligament' surgery could straighten *that* leg. It had been broken and badly healed and he guessed it happened before the mini was 2yrs old and quite probably when he was under 1yr old.

*place your hands, palms together in front of you, fingertips pointing towards opposite elbows. Rotate your palms and make a slight angle so the ends of your fingers stick out from the level plane your hands/arms had made. That is how his rear cannon bone had broken/healed.

I called her back with my vet's findings and told her I was uninterested in continuing making payments and if she wanted to come pick him up I would pay her gas/time. She declined and let him remain with me. That next spring, something must have been in the air, but he was hounding my gelding all over that corral! He was rearing up and trying to *breed* my old gelding and poor Cochise was looking at me, pleading with me, to take the little hormone-driven fiend away from him. So I had Mickelby gelded to remove the breeding-frustration he was experiencing. It was done in the backyard grass and the only thing done differently was the vet and I layed on Mickelby's neck to keep him down. He staggered up the first time and had such a terrible time keeping his balance with his poorly healed back leg, we decided the first time he crashed down that we'd just lay on him until he was much more awake and able to control himself better. We did not want that back leg to re-break.
The break never caused him trouble that I could see. He had been that way for quite a few years before I got him, though I cannot imagine the agony he endured until it healed and I would have loved to have 10min alone in a sound-secured room with an oak 2x4 and his owners who allowed that with no veterinary assistance.... :evil: If he got loose? He could run like the wind and I had spent quite a bit of time chasing and cursing him while he enjoyed himself! There was no catching him, he had to be herded into a 'trap' before he would give up The Chase. Stinker.

My cryptorchid colt:
I had the vet out when he was 2 and the vet said we'd check next year. We checked at 3 and again at 4 where he attempted to geld him but could not easily locate the crypt testicle so he closed him back up. He sent us to UCDavis Veterinary College. It only cost $300 at UCD, so it was affordable. Like you, they quoted me between $100 to $1000 for the surgery, but he had to have it. I had saved up $700 and brought the cash with me to UCD. My step-dad offered to loan me the other $300 if it was needed, but luckily it was not and I had $ left over. The vet hospitals HAVE to give you the price range from 'no complications' to 'lots of complications' because no one ever knows what will be found and how well the horse will recover. Most of the surgeries ARE on the low end, but they still have to give the if-something-happens quote.
Contact KY University Veterinary College
http://www.ca.uky.edu/gluck/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Define "cryptorchid"????
If it is one testicle down and the other "in the chute" he can be gelded as normal...this is the most common form of cryptorchidism and of course the stallion is fertile.
If it is both testicles "in the chute" the stallion should not be fertile....but I would not bet anything, let alone the farm, on that being true!!!!
If, and now we are going into the realms of cryptorchidism, it is a case of the testicle(s) being actually up above the Inguinal ring then you are talking deep body surgery and it is a whole different ball game.
In fact it is Shuttlecock, no balls involved!!! :laugh1
Ultrasound will tell you what exactly is involved and how much it will cost and US will not break the bank.
I agree, if you cannot handle a stallion you should not own one...he should have been taught manners long, long ago, I have gelded some really, truly nice looking horses that displayed character flaws less than this.
Gelding him and his friend should calm them down within a year...it would be less but without corrective surgery to the manners it will take that long, and also of course a lot of his behaviour is learned, and thus must be forgotten.
My Bertie was a potential thug at two, I am not sure why he got to that age without being gelded but there you go, anyway he was gelded last October and has been working for his living, and loving it, since December....he is now driving properly and loves that too, and I can drive him through the mares, and did today, without mishap, but he still has his dreams, he just can't remember what he was supposed to do next, anymore.
So if Bert, gelded at two, can remember nearly a year later, I can assure you a ten year old will.
Why anyone would keep entire an animal, any animal, they do not intend to breed is totally , completely, beyond me...sorry!! Just don't understand it.
I left Bertie mainly because it costs so much (upwards of $600.00) and I had to save it up, my previous Vet had done it for me on the cheap (still over $200.00).
I moved just over a year ago to the Royal Veterinary College and they do gelding at $200.00 and they keep the horse there for three days as it is a teaching hospital, as it were.
Bert and Disney were in through the doors as soon as I found out the price!!

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CMhorses
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Re: Cryptorchidism

I always herd a cryptorchid was when both testicles did not descend and a monorchid was when one descended. He is some kind of cryptorchid, not sure if they made it through the ring or not, but neither descended fully.

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Heidi
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Re: Cryptorchidism

Oh! Then I've been thinking of it wrong all these years!
I know my colt's sire was a Grullo racing QH who only had one testicle. Only one was descended. As a matter of fact, my vet knew the stud and called him The One Balled Wonder who almost gelded himself when he tried to clear the rail during a race and instead straddled it, nearly ripping off his single 'jewel'. The vet had nothing very good to say about the people who bred the stud to unsuspecting mare owners.
When he laid my colt out, we had the one fine and dandy, but the vet only pushed it aside and dug around and dug around and could not find the 2nd 'in the chute' at all, which is why he buttoned him back up and sent us to UCDavis.
So, by definition, my colt was a monorchid, then.
See? STILL learning!

Sara
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Re: Cryptorchidism

I think a monorchid (one sex organ) is a form of cryptorchid (hidden sex organ) but some cryptorchids do have both testicles retained.

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Jenks
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Re: Cryptorchidism

$200-$1000???? Lord that's cheap! We almost bought a stallion here but it would have cost us $2500 for the surgery and adding that to his price made him not worth it.