Covered in stripes...more each year

Hi everybody,

I'm new here so this is my first post (sorry if it's a double one...just lost my first try lol). Rabbitsfiz told me all about you guys.

So here's what I have...

5 year old bay miniature horse. Dam is silver bay, sire is black. Neither parent is a dun (no duns in line at all) Coincidence or not he is the greatgrandson of a horse (Komokos Little King Supreme) who has a greatgranddaughter and granddaughter who are both confirmed brindles.

He was born with very strong distinct shoulder bars, neck patches and a dorsal stripe.

When he shed out as a yearling his throat, neck and shoulders were covered in stripes. There were also stripes coming off his dorsal. Here's his yearling pictures...

After seeing thess pictures I was told the Brindle and Striped horse registry that he was a brindle.
Dr. Phil Sponenberg saw the pics and told me that "he looks like the most wildly marked dun I've ever seen but isn't a dun". He then went on to say "This one is very interesting.
The usual brindle horse (rare though they are) usually has a somewhat random collection of very thin stripes. What strikes me about your horse is that this striping is very regularly spaced, and is thicker where I would somehow think it should be (withers). So, I think something else is going on here too, probably related to the sootiness.
This is a very interesting horse!"

And now here are his pictures as a 5 year old...he's COVERED in stripes. Every summer he's developed more. Now he has stripes all over his sides. They are very hard to photograph because the color of the stripes is almost his body color. The stripes do however have a completely different texture to them. The hair where the stripes are is longer and the best way to describe it is to say it looks like a "bad clip job" ( he hasn't been clipped for 4 years) this is what his coat looks like when he's shed. I recently submitted pics to a breeder of seasonal brindles who said this description of the coat texture and his photos tell her that he's a seasonal brindle just like the ones she breeds. It's like an appy where the spots are longer hair. http://www.brindlehorses.com/l3l13/char…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's never lost a stripe he's developed. The can be seen through his winter coat in different degrees. They don't shave off (clipped him the first year to see)

I have no idea what he is...have nothing to gain from the knowledge but just knowing lol...any ideas? This pony has had a lot of folks baffled for 5 years :BH

Thanks for taking the time to look.

[i]Edited by ACC to remove duplicate photos but keep text in tact from merging topics.[/i]

Welcome Miniwhinny :newbie , glad RF send you our way...we love challenging color questions (and adorable photos :love )

As to your baby being brindle, all I can say is that those are some of the strongest primative markings I have ever seen on a horse (reminds me of a minimally marked zorse/zony foal)...but of course it isn't. Nice "baby" :X

http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hybr…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the welcome. I'm really grateful that Rabbitsfizz guided me over here, not just for my horse - I've spent hours over the past few days reading old posts. I've learned so much - this is a great site.

As for those hybrids...oh now I want one lol

I'm calling him brindle...for no other reason that some brindle breeders are telling me he's just like their seasonal brindles..but I'm still not convinced he is. That's why I'm here...see what you guys have to say.

WooHoo Hiya.
OK show them his pretty head now, or they'll pout!!

I say brindle. Although I have seen similar duns, he doesn't even look dun. It really does look more like primitive markings than brindle. I guess this is one of those cases where we can only go be phenotype, and phenotype is more brindle than anything else. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is nothing more than a horse with EXTREME countershading (which is thought to be like horsey camouflage).

accphotography - I think you summed up what I've been going through...I've had brindle breeders tell me they think he's brindle from his phenotype because if you take the description of what causes brindle literally then he is

(taken from Sponenbergs book Equine Color genetics) "Brindle seems to require sooty (smutty) countershading for it's expression and reorganizes sootiness into vertical stripes instead of a more uniform sprinkling of hairs" Well that's what's happening here.

There again what you said about extreme countershading is something I've thought about...could there be something in the genetics of the "line" that has produced these three horses. The other two (can't post pics they're not mine) are both roans I wonder if that expression, because roan can create it's own vertical stripes, combined with whatever gene is producing Ozy's vertical stripes that they may have inherited is "doubling up creating the typical brindle appearance that they have. I wonder if I bred Ozy to a roan if I could do the same?

Rabbitsfizz...I'd sure hate to make anyone pout lol...but I'm not a big one for taking good pics...this is the best head shot I can find...back as a two year old (before the development of the body stripes)

[img]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g160/…]

[quote="miniwhinny"]accphotography
There again what you said about extreme countershading is something I've thought about...could there be something in the genetics of the "line" that has produced these three horses. The other two (can't post pics they're not mine) are both roans I wonder if that expression, because roan can create it's own vertical stripes, combined with whatever gene is producing Ozy's vertical stripes that they may have inherited is "doubling up creating the typical brindle appearance that they have. I wonder if I bred Ozy to a roan if I could do the same?
[/quote]

I dunno... I can see the stripes starting there already, they just apparently started from the topline down.

I agree about whatever is causing the stripes in the other horses and possible joining with roan. it's one of those out there, unprovable theories, but it's one that makes sense and I like it. :D I WOULD be curious to see what he'd do with a roan!

Hmmmmmm I am thinking that it looks more like the barring with Dun but with the horse's history - could equally be Brindle in minimal form - weird - thanks for sharing !

No known Dun in this horse, though.....

[quote="accphotography"]I say brindle. Although I have seen similar duns, he doesn't even look dun. It really does look more like primitive markings than brindle. I guess this is one of those cases where we can only go be phenotype, and phenotype is more brindle than anything else. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is nothing more than a horse with EXTREME countershading (which is thought to be like horsey camouflage).[/quote]
I agree with this. Completely.

Yep that is why it's too weird !!! :lol:

You say that there's not a history of dun behind him, but is there a chance that some of those ancestors could have done a good job of hiding dun and/or been misidentified? With that sort of very obvious dun markings, I'd get him dun-tested just to make sure.

Diane

MODS....I'm so sorry I double posted my original thread...could the responses to this thread be combined with the one below it? and then delete the double post (sorry new..didnt realize it had to be checked first)

..anyone else trying to help...could you re-post on the thread below (so very sorry) :BH Just another newb !

I was going to correct it before there were any responses to this one... but the text didn't look the same to me. Are they? If so, I'll merge them.

I'm so sorry everyone. I double posted my original thread. I'm hoping there's a mod who can move over the posts to this thread.

To everyone on the other thread who are questioning dun. He hasn't been tested for dun but I've bred duns for years and know it's dominant and can't skip a generation. Neither parent was dun (silver bay and black) and there were also no duns a generation past that. That threw me the day I saw him born..how can a non dun be marked like he was? There were also no dun studs on the farm who could have accidently had a midnight meeting with momma.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Not talking dun factor skipping generations, but rather people not seeing and/or recognising dun factor...I have just seen too many horses, personally, misregistered colourwise, to rule out anything that's not DNA colour tested (and of course, even there, there can be problems with results! :rofl )

Diane

Looks like sooty countershading. Very cool.

Dun is 100% ruled out. I know that dun can't skip but after carefully checking numerous times to try to find it hiding I can't - neither parent has any "hidden" signs of dun. Mom visually looks like a chestnut but is actually a silver bay she has no dorsal, no face mask, no leg barring, no shoulder patches/stripes, no cobwebbing etc she shows no dun signs at all and has never produced a dun. Sire is solid midnight black...no dun factor signs at all - never produced a dun. The generations behind those are solid sorrel, solid chestnut, solid bay and solid buckskin - no dun hiding - no duns produced.

I think I can say with certainty that what's going on has nothing to do with dun. His grandsire Locomotion on his sires side is a solid bay with strong smutty shading in the "usual pattern" that you'd expect to see it (random hairs scattered along the top line and down) But he doesn't have any connection with the horse who has produced the brindles....The one with two confirmed brindles as grandget and greatgrandget is Supreme...he is a roan ("was" he's passed)

.......Little Kings Locomotion (..........Little Kings Buckeroo)
Ozy......Little Kings Midnight Express
.......Little Kings Cinderella............Komokos Little King Supreme

So what do you guys think of this....?

I'm thinking that Supreme carries something (perhaps related to roan...perhaps brindle...maybe both) I find it too much of a coincidence that the only 2 and possibly 3 brindles known in the USA have him 3 and 4 generations back. My thoughts are that whatever is it that he's passing on has "combined" with something these horses have to produce what visually looks like brindle. I think in the other two it's combined with roan and in Ozy it's combined with sooty to change "regular" roan and "regular" sooty countershading into the varient that produces the vertical stripes.

Or..maybe I just need to cut back on how much coffee I drink hahaahha :coffee

Yes, this is LKS's fault, no doubt!!
I have seen loads of pictures of this horse and I have always thought there was far more going on there than just Roan...I did think, at one time, there could be Dun, but that would just fit in, visually, with what we are finding in Ozy, and I love the picture of his head, btw, so thanks, no pouting now!!

Brindle for me too...May I have some hair?? :flower

Hoofpick - you [i]really[/i] want hair?

Oh, miniwhinny doesn't know about you or your research Hoofpick (nor probably any of the others like Horsegen, Monsterponey, etc.).

Miniwhinny, she does color research by examining different horses' hairs for differentiating qualities (colors, shaft widths, center width, etc). Hoofpick has gotten so good at it that she can tell the color of a horse simply by examining it's hair samply (without benefit of a photo).

Oh cool. I'm impressed !

Glad you explained that to me though...there's some strange folks out there ya know :rofl :rofl

Oh course you can have some hair Hoofpick just PM me details :D

You will find that we have a pretty broad-based group that includes quite a few "experts" in the field of equine color genetics, veternarians (and vet students), and a WHOLE bunch of breeders and horse enthusiast in general.

I'm REALLY enjoying the entire site. I'm one of the many sofa-bound-souls with swine flu at the moment so I've been savoring all the different sections you have here. I may not be able to participate much as I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to some of the more exotic colors but I'm sure going to be here learning.

:HB

Thanks Critter! :flower Yep if you like to take a pinch of body hair from the shoulder ribs and rump and post them to me so I can look under the microscope to see what colors are involved. Dun presents very differenly to any other color! I only costs postage as I don't want anything for it as DNA is definite and my work is only "more than likely" and "probably". But as there is only the dun zogosity test I look at hairs for horses to be registered in Dilutes Australia (our premium dilute register here). I can't wait till the dun test happens as then I can compare my work and see if I was nearly 100% right!

I'm going to say brindle. You can see the stripes even in the foal coat and they're lighter than the base coat.

Just wanted to update my thread with some new info on Ozy.

The American Brindle Horse Association has been on hold and off the air for quite a while due to a serious illness within the family running it. Anyhow last week they got their web site up and running and are open for registration.

http://www.abea-online.raynewolfe.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had submitted pictures of Ozymandias way back last summer when I started this thread here and am excited to say that I just heard from them last week and he more than passed inspection :flower and is being registered as a seasonal brindle. Sending in my papers this week (or next - I procrastinate lol) I just wanted to thank everyone here for helping me and fill you all in on the outcome. As soon as I get his ABHA papers I'll change his registered color with the AMHA. Now my next move will be to see if I can reproduce it 8-)

Thanks everyone for all of your help.