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conformation critique and guess the breed please

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Sara
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conformation critique and guess the breed please
I want a serious critique on this mare, please. She is one I am considering breeding to Cory next year. I don't have papers for her but she has competed in open circuit hunters for many years. I'm not sure how high she ended up going but now she's stepping down a bit and doesn't much care to jump any higher than about 2'3" which is how I ended up with her (I love old school masters for my lesson program). Her flatwork is impeccable and she has clean lead changes. I still need to get trot photos of her because with the right rider she moves very impressively. With a beginner she jogs along which is perfect. The old owner told me that she is Lipizzan x Thoroughbred but I don't know if that is certain or just someone's best guess. I can definitely see the Lipizzan, especially when she moves, but I am sometimes suspicious that the other half is Arabian. Her face is awfully fine and she has that puny rear end. :lol: Also, she is quite short -- only about 15.2. The area that looks like a lump kind of right at her loins is fat as far as I can tell. She was allowed to become obese at some point and I have worked most of the fat off her but she doesn't seem to be able to get rid of that one leftover bit on each side. Yes, I know she is facing the wrong way. We absolutely could not get her to stand still the other way because a) she had to face into the wind and b) she had to face away from the barn. Also, she is leaning slightly forward (wanting to go to the barn!) so if you can't critique these at all let me know and I'll get new ones. IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/jmpnghorse/Phoebe/Phoebestandright052309.jpg) IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/jmpnghorse/Phoebe/Phoebestandright2052309.jpg) And just for fun, here is my son learning to jump on her. IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/jmpnghorse/Phoebe/PhoebePascaljump052309.jpg) Huh. The photos are not showing up for me so perhaps photobucket is having issues? I'll check this post again tomorrow to see if it's decided to work or not. :-?
lillith
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

Ok I'm not the best at this but I'll give it a go.

Overall nothing leaps out saying nooooooooooooo. I like her balance though perhaps a touch long in the back? I am used to ponies though to anything with TB in I tend to think of as long.

Could do with a little more muscle on the rear, bit of a jumpers bump and I think she is a bit straight in the hock perhaps and a touch camped out but that could be the way she is standing. I like the shoulder and pastern angles. Perhaps a bit more length in the neck would be ideal.

As for breed she looks a lot like the pony-TB crosses I have seen, welsh D/TB or NF/TB in these pics.

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Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

You must be able to see the photos but I still can't! Odd. I'll try clearing my cache or something.

Funny about the neck because it actually looks longer than that in person. I think she was trying sooo hard to creep toward the barn (and her buddies) and my son was pushing her back so she had scrunched her neck up in response to his aids.

What you're seeing in her rear with the lack of muscle is why I think maybe she has Arabian in her. Usually my lesson horses do so much trotting that they really muscle up behind. (Actually, my two Arabian mares have better hind ends than she does... but that's partly why I like them when I'm not an Arabian person in general...)

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TwinCreeksFarm
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I like her--nothing screams out at me, though I am definitely not a conformation guru. Perhaps a tad camped out behind is all I see. I believe the TB/Lipi thing.

Heidi
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

Her neck looks a little heavy and her shoulder seems upright. When I run a plumb-line up from her elbow, it comes to just a bit forward of the center of her withers. A more sloped shoulder would have that elbow-plumb-line coming up right in the 'dip' before the withers where it joins the neck. Also, having the withers back just that touch more would shorten her back a bit.
I don't see this creating much of a problem, especially if Cory is very conformationally correct in that particular area. As for guessing the breed, I think I'd be terrible, though I thought the Lippizan breed traced back to a small handful of stallion-lines and there was one (perhaps two?) who were lighter and a bit more Araby in build. I'm sure Lipi would know.

lipigirl
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I'm here !!! :flower

IMHO I do not see Lipi in her -the hind does not look right for that and the neck set is all wrong for a Lipi and she looks more like an Irish draught, however, she still could be Lipi cross but not show the typical looks of a cross....i would like to see her moving to tell you what I thought. Her hind looks very Araby to me, so there may be Arab in there. If she was over here I would say Irish Draught or even Anglo Arab.

I really do not know how well Cory would compliment her - can you post a confo shot of him on here please for compasrison.

Edited to add - Yes Heidi you are right, there were 6 0riginal stallions with 2 other rarer ones that were added later - I was lucky enough to own one of those lines which are super rare - he was a Tulipan line. My other Stallions were Neapolitano and Maestoso and a youngster Pluto. I was lucky enough to work with a very rare black Conversano stallion and my current gelding is Siglavy lines which was Arabian. The other 2 not mentioned above are Favory who was a Dun stallion and the other rare line is Incitano. All register 1 Lipizzaners have to trace back to one of these 8 stallions to be purebred.....that is 400 yrs ! ;)

Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

Lipi, what are you seeing with the neck set? That was one of the places I thought I could see Lipizzan in her. If I get video of her I'll post it here... not sure when that might happen as I have sale horses to video and my time with people who can video horses for me is limited. :) anyway it does not matter to me what she is, really, since she has her show record to prove herself. I'm just curious what people think.

I do need to track down her old owner for some other things though so I'll find out if I can get verification on her breeding.

Oh, the lady I got her from imports Irish Drafts and Irish Sport Horses and I've seen them right next to her and she does not look like those big guys in person. I can see Anglo-Arab maybe though.

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Dilutes
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I would have believed tb x lipi only because I don't have much lipi knowledge :lol:
She does look like an anglo to me :D I've seen plenty of those crosses over the years and own one myself.

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accphotography
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

Honestly, based on appearance alone, she could truly be just about anything. I can find very little in her that says "this part of me is ____" and "that part of me is ____". :laugh1

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Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

If it helps, I'll tell you that she is incredibly deep through her chest and barrel. She easily takes up the leg of my student who is 5'9" and very leggy. I suppose that could be Thoroughbred though.

I doubt she is any sort of stock horse... and not full TB... my money is still on some sort of hot/cold mix so either Arab or TB and something like Lipizzan or ??? Oh, also she is very dull and lazy.

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accphotography
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

The head and neck (and croup to some extent) make any type of stock horse seem unlikely (though I have seen AQHAs like this), but the other things you describe sound stock horse. :rofl But I suspect you might find those things in a Lipi too. I don't know them well.

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Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

It's the muscling (rather lack of muscling in key areas) that makes me think not stock horse. I've ridden a fair number of Quarter Horses and Appendix Quarter Horses, actually several APHAs and a few Appaloosas too, and she's different as far as where her size is.

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Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I forgot to address Lipi's request for a conformation shot of Cory. :) I'm not ready to post a shot like that yet. I've been advised (by another stallion owner) to make sure such photos (side view, standing square) of any stallion are not made available online until he is fully mature and in top working shape.

Anyway it will be interesting to find out if I can get any more breed information from the old owner. If there isn't any, however, I will defer to Lipi because she knows the Lipizzans best. I know that I can peg Welsh (or not) pretty easily and granted there may be some times that it's there and I don't see it, but when you have your hands on a breed every day you get to know it pretty well. :)

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lipigirl
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I was going to say that Lipis do not tend to be lazy either they are a spirited forward going breed and are very willing for the rider. When I say she still could be - she could, there are 2 types of Lipi, the Hungarian type is bred for carriage driving so is longer coupled and taller 16hh or little more, I have only ever owned one of those and she was huge and a bit of a madame although she was stubborn she was also not lazy. As I said in another post my friend used to cross them with Fjords and some looked more like Lipis and others the Fjord so that just goes to add that she still could be......sorry I can't be more helpful than that. One other thing is they also tend to have tummies - even the ones in the Spanish Riding school, but again this could just be the TB influence in her. I like her BTW. If you can get a vid that would help.

Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

Oh, maybe my understanding of Lipizzan temperament was off then, because I understood that they were pretty dull, like most warmbloods. I do notice that they are almost always ridden in long spurs. Phoebe will definitely move out with an experienced rider (in spurs!) but is veeeeeery slow with a beginner. Although remember my standard of "forward moving" is the TB and Arab. When a bunch of us were discussing canter cues on my facebook page a couple months ago, my friend who tends to ride a lot of OTTBs said (tongue in cheek, mainly) that her canter cue is simply releasing her "for the love of god please stop!" aids. :laugh1

I suppose her way of going isn't a huge clue to what she is though, because I have in my barn the world's laziest Thoroughbred gelding. He's been that way since the first time I rode him at age four and he's sixteen now. When he was competing heavily we had him on red cell and free choice alfalfa pellets and he was still lazy!

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Jenks
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

The mare is definitely not camped out. I see not even a hint of arab in her. I do see the big chest of a lipi though. She's slightly posty in the rear and she looks a bit shallow in the rear ( which in combo with the little peak probably are making you think arab). She's got a TB backend, but is a little long in the back giving her that look back there, with a deep girth which I think is throwing you. I really do not see arab at all, but I do think that it more likely that she is exactly what they said she was.

I think she's awesome, but I can go into more detail later when I have time.

Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

Thanks, jenks! Her chest - yes - is huge. I'd love to be able to work more muscle into her hind end to balance out her look a little more but I just don't have time to add another horse to my own riding roster. as my son becomes a better rider he'll be able to put her on the bit and work her back and rear end some more.

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Jenks
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

maybe I need a Lipi cross!? LOL She's long in the hip and open in the shoulder. You can see she's capable of jumping, power for the jump (I can only imagine if you can start working her butt) with the hip....I wonder if the little rough coupling she's got makes it more difficult to bend or if she's just gotten away with not using her butt. Even her gaskin is barely muscled - or looks so from the pics.

lipigirl
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I know this may be a daft question but does she go in straight lines easily in the school ? A lot of Iberian breeds inc the Lipi, Andy and Luso all find going in a straight line difficult - they are so bendy this makes them hard work to start schooling as you constantly have one of other leg on them to keep them straight - it completely knackered me with Mateo !! They are calm but also foward going IME.

Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I know this may be a daft question but does she go in straight lines easily in the school ? A lot of Iberian breeds inc the Lipi, Andy and Luso all find going in a straight line difficult - they are so bendy this makes them hard work to start schooling as you constantly have one of other leg on them to keep them straight - it completely knackered me with Mateo !! They are calm but also foward going IME.

Not daft at all because that describes her perfectly! I have to start my brand new riders right out with an explanation of how to keep her between your aids, otherwise she just twists all over the arena! We practice going down center line so they can understand making a "tunnel" with their aids -- each rein and each leg always has to work to keep her going straight. If you try to steer her with an opening rein she just twists her head to that side and lets her haunch swing out the opposite way. Then she proceeds to go wherever she wants to go... sideways. Sometimes beginners get frustrated but I assure them they are just getting a head start on proper steering, and a school horse that allows direct opening rein steering won't do them any favors later.

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lipigirl
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

Ok....now we are cooking ! Sounds like you might have a Lipi cross then. ;) She may also be from the Hungarian lines which is why she is not typical Lipi - cool !!! 8-) Would like to see a vid still though.

Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I'll let you know if I get a video of her. I wish I had one of when she jumped out of the arena (I didn't have a gate up yet and just had it blocked with a jump that she easily cleared) and went ripping around outside in the snow. Drop. Dead. Gorgeous.

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colorfan
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

I like her throatlatch, it appears tight, she also seems to have plenty of room at her mandibular to flex at her poll.

Her neck has a natural arc and comes out of her shoulder high enough to allow for easy collection.

She has a great girth position, a deep chest, well set withers to hold a saddle in place.
I believe it is not the shoulder angle itself but the shoulder angle combined with the elbow angle that determine length of stride and scope. (ability to pick knees up to clear jumps)
Her long elbow and high point of shoulder indicate to me she should be able to pick her knees up to her ears.
A line through her forearm, through her shoulder comes out well ahead of her wither, meaning she is light on her forehand, should make collecting easier.
Her Ilium appears a bit longish, the distance from her point of hip through her flank to stifle appears a bit short, her stifle placement a bit high. I would guess she can track up but naturally prefers a slightly shorter step.
With neither rear leg placed under her I am only guessing but it appears that if her hock were under her buttock, her pastern would be slightly ahead.
Her legs seem clean, knee and hock joints flat and large enough, front pastern angle good, rear angle a bit steep.
While she does appear somewhat under muscled in her rear, her length of Illium contributes to that appearance, I think she is strong enough to get under herself and push or collect as needed. Her loin looks flat and strong but definately her LS joint is a bit behind her hip. This would make her a smooth ride but could make higher collection more of a challenge. This placement can also contribute to a hunters bump if jumped regularly.
I think she is fairly well balanced, the moderate weakness in her hind end can be overcome by her strong front end and correct conditioning, and overall quite a lovely mare.

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Sara
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Re: conformation critique and guess the breed please

Thanks, colorfan. I just now saw this critique. I have not bred her yet but plan to in the near future.

It's true she is easy to collect, that she is smooth, and that she prefers a short step but can move out if you ask her. She does not care for jumping so I can't comment on her form over big fences.

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