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Color Recognition in Vet Med

I am in the process of outlining my senior paper for my fourth year. I want to base the project around current knowledge of color genetics in the veterinary field and the need for horse vets to be further educated. Part of the project will include a survey of equine vets in the US using a photographic electronic survey. Once I determine the level of knowledge amongst vets, I will put together the reasoning behind further education. I have broken the reasoning for knowing accurately horse colors down into two main categories, medical and legal. So far I have for medical Frame (LWO), Lp/Appaloosa (night blindness) and Grey (melanoma). For legal I have registrations, transport/coggins documents and medical records. Can you all think of any other medical or legal reasons why a vet needs to have at least a moderate color genetics understanding? On a similar note, once I finish the survey, I am going to use you all as guinea pigs to test its accuracy. I should have a first draft done soon, but I am still short certain pictures. The first part of the survey will have photos of different colors with a box to fill in the correct color. This part is to determine if the average vet can distinguish the obvious phenotypes of normal colors (so no almost black sooty palominos, fjord dunskins or other aberrant-type shades). For that, I am still in need photos that very clearly show the typical expression of palomino, champagne (close up enough to show eye/skin color), red dun, grey with distinct dapples, grullo and any of the double cream dilutes. If you have those or know someone who might have them, please let me know. All appropriate credits will be given in the survey and presentation. The second part of the survey will have photos of ten or twelve horses of various white patterns with a breed listed and will have the option to check which of the horses is carrying the frame gene. For this part, I want photos of obvious frames as well as non-expressing frames and non-frames that have frame-like white patterns. Basically, this is to show that it is not possible to tell by visual cues only whether a horse is Oo or not. So if you have any photos of (or can direct me to someone that does): a) very obvious frame patterns b) Frame (Oo) horses that do not show frame (like mostly tobiano expression, only face markings or solid/non-white) c) Non-frame (oo) horses that have patterns that are often confused with frame (splash, sabino, etc).

greasedweasel Sat, 03/28/2009 - 05:50

Blood mark on a grey (looking for a better photo of her but I've sold the mare and can't get any more!)

[url=http://pets.webshots.com/photo/23948114…]

[url=http://pets.webshots.com/photo/27620143…]

Lplp

[url=http://pets.webshots.com/photo/26240273…]

Foal at 4 days - going grey

[url=http://pets.webshots.com/photo/21366310…]

Same horse at around eight months

[url=http://pets.webshots.com/photo/21485122…]

and at 14 months

[url=http://pets.webshots.com/photo/24124119…]

Threecritters Sat, 03/28/2009 - 13:08

Buckskin as foal:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/…]

Buckskin in winter:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/…]

Grullo Roan going grey:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/…]

Grullo Roan going grey headshot:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/…]

Grullo Roan going grey in winter:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/…]

Bay vs. Buckskin:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/…]

Bay Dun mare with Buckskin (by palomino stallion) foal:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/…]

accphotography Sun, 03/29/2009 - 00:59

[quote="TwinCreeksFarm"]Here is Tiger Lily, tested negative for frame. She has the mustache and blue eyes that some associate with frame.[/quote]

I used to associate it as well. Knowing what I know now, I don't think id' have thought she was frame. I have come to feel that moustaches are as often, if not more often, associated with splash. In fact I see so many frames who I also feel are splash, I think moustaches may always be splash. But that's just a possible theory of which I'm not even sure yet. All I know is when I see a *frontal* moustache like Tiger's, I think splash. The side moustaches I think are more likely to be frame's handiwork (though I can show you a whole hoard of frame negatives with side 'staches). Lacy is frame positive and has a frontal moustache (and nothing on the side), but I believe she is also splash.

I also wanted to comment on something else about Tiger. She has quite a few spots in her face white doesn't she? Does she also have distals and ermines? If so, I bet she has a suppressor. I bet you'll either get very loud, or very suppressed foals depending on what she passes. I'd love to see what she'd do to a homozygous tobi. :lol:

RiddleMeThis Sun, 03/29/2009 - 07:47

[quote="CMhorses"]I know what an ermine spot is but what is a distal?[/quote]
From what I understand ermine spots are the ones right by the hoof and distals are ones higher up on the legs.

TwinCreeksFarm Sun, 03/29/2009 - 09:39

She has ermines! No distals though, according to RMT's definition.
And we'll see what kind of foal patterns we'll have anyday now.. -taps foot- :bounce

RiddleMeThis Sun, 03/29/2009 - 12:31

[quote="critterkeeper"]RMT - isn't that reversed - ermines are higher up and distals along the hooves?[/quote]Not as far as I know. I could be wrong, but that's what I have always heardl

Monsterpony Sun, 03/29/2009 - 13:11

Distal means lower so I would assume that those are the lowest ones, but I haven't heard that term used in that way so I don't know one way or the other.

TheRedHayflinger Sun, 03/29/2009 - 13:51

if you still need gold champagne/flaxen mane and tail....i think my old gelding might fit, possibly?
here is just one picture I have of him...i have loads more if you need something different.

accphotography Sun, 03/29/2009 - 13:57

I didn't make the terms, but ermines must touch the hoof, distals are anything above that.

Distals can be difficult to see unless the horse is wet. Probably easier on a bay base like Tiger though. Almost impossible to see on Lacy with her blonde leg color, so I have to wet her and look for the dark skin. I trust you'd have found them by now.

I'm really interested to see this foal.

TheRedHayflinger Mon, 03/30/2009 - 10:52

here we go..some various photos of him in the sun...it's saying most of my photos are too big...so i'll give you photobucket links...they will never change. I have foal pics of him too if needed (he was a very orange baby...lol)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/s…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/s…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/s…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/s…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/s…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

need to see some pink skin? LOL
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/s…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/s…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

younger headshot of him that shows skin, freckles and eyes
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/s…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Krickette Mon, 03/30/2009 - 15:16

I don't have any neat photos, but I know on fhotd blog someone has a black mare named Blue who has I think one small sock or something and 2 blue eyes.
And you can use my weird mule photo, lol.
Or sheba, she was a wild silver bay and every vet called her strawberry roan. Pics in gallary under bay.
And if you want any jazz photos I think she's splash, frame, and sabino.

TheRedHayflinger Mon, 03/30/2009 - 15:21

glad I could be of some help Monsterpony.

I have pictures of him from birth(and still wet) to 5 years of age....he sadly passed away in December...he would have turned 6 last week.

TheRedHayflinger Mon, 03/30/2009 - 15:34

will dig some up tomorrow or Wednesday when I'm home and have time...I just found my old CD of his baby pictures. I think I also have pictures of his eyes in a greenish stage too...very pale greyseafoamy green right before they turned amber. He was a surprise baby that is for sure. Dam was solid black...I seen and rode his sire and just thought he was a palomino at the time (didn't know about champagne)...so was thinking I was going to maybe have a small chance at a pally or buckskin baby...when he was born we were like...he's...orange...and has pink skin??? HUH?? blue eyes????? We were a bit...confused to say the least..LOL.

my vet thinks it was something genetic why I lost him...I lost his dam when he was 3 months to "colic"...they later decided she had abdominal tumors....he started going downhill this fall...and it was a repeat of what I went through with his dam. Lost him on December 17th.

Sara Mon, 03/30/2009 - 15:37

Wow - how common are those abdominal tumors? What are the symptoms?

I also lost a mare and, three years later, her foal. Her baby (my hand raised orphan) also died of colic but he had digestive issues his entire life that we were never able to get under control. Then he died of an extremely sudden colic last fall.

TheRedHayflinger Mon, 03/30/2009 - 15:48

what I went through with both Libby and Riot..not sure how common abdominal tumors are, but my vet felt that what they had was genetic...he said the reason they'd perk up while in the big colic episode was because the tumors would shift a bit and give the horse relief....but then shift back and they'd "crash"

weight loss (we actually thought Libby's was from Riot nursing as he was one chunky monkey...but she had hay all the time and loads of "horse kibble"--ration balancer, BOSS, beet pulp, and a pelleted feed). My vet did bloodwork on both at their respected times...never found anything off. Even he couldn't understand why they were dropping weight. Both were checked for ulcers--nada.

minor colics...gassy type colics...lay down, feel "off", maybe a roll or two....walk them for a half hour or give them a bit of banamine and they'd perk right up and be back to normal within an hour.

a big colic. Both of them did the same things....would start to perk up during the colic and then, literally, crash to the ground shaking...and revert back. Libby passed on her own not long after the vet left (he was going to come back in a few hours as there was nothing else he could do for her at the time--tubed, pain meds, palpated, all that good stuff)...She did a final collapse and I sat down and held her head and she died. Riot had to be put down, as he fought it all day(Libby was a more passive mare, Riot wasn't as passive....I honestly think that personality trait made him fight all day).

Riot also had some digestive issues...he was a VERY hard keeper and beet pulp would always send him into a colic..as would too much grass (I could only let him graze for an hour tops before pulling him off for a few hours)

CMhorses Mon, 03/30/2009 - 16:17

Ah I thought you meant a different mule. Don't know how good mule photos would be for what monsterpony needs them for, since mules can skew even base colors.
Still wonder what color that mule really is.