Splash in Hackney Horses

was looking for pictures and seen this posted
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-166654" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and seen it was a farm listed in the starting post of this thread...and seen this cutie in their sales on the page:
http://www.erosarabhacks.com/sales/devon..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(his poppa: http://www.erosarabhacks.com/stallions/e..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

and another pic of the mare who's linked in the start post..with a foal at side
http://www.erosarabhacks.com/sales/eros-..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gah that baby is to stinking cute for it's own good!

http://panachehackneys.com/Panache%20Mer..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
this guy has a lot of white on him. The video shows some neat angles on him, like under his jaw and such.

this is his sire: http://panachehackneys.com/Canadance.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

looking for his dam

full brother:
http://panachehackneys.com/Panache%20Vic..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hm, DW is making sense, that one looks just like Puchi Trap and two of her foals. All of them have that white going down and under their heads. http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColours..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lots of white seems popular in Hackneys, maybe because it looks flashy?

Think you hit the nail on the head there. Half white legs on a gaited animal, yep.

i think that one looks splash too ThirdPeppermint

another neat looking one: EQL Phantom (was listed under their purebred Hackney section)
http://www.equilegends.com/Phantom1s.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and
EQL Taj Mahal
http://www.equilegends.com/Tajtrot3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's just weird how they have lots of leg white, big body splotches like splash, but can have as little as a star on their head. It looks very splashy, but splash usually does a lot on the face. It very well could be just a strange expression, but it's suspicious how consistent it is. In my opinion. I'm not a horse geneticist, though!

I've never thought a horse had to have a white face to be splash, it's just the most obvious expression. I don't think it's at all unusual to have a splash with obvious body markings and not much white on the head. Remember I have shetlands though, they don't often have face or leg white white, so I've got my own weird way of looking at things :)

I posted a horse not long ago APHA or AQHA(can't remember), but can't find the good pics of him... he was splash white (i'm guessing) just had a white chin and 4 high white legs. Slightly Zipped is his name http://www.silvercreekranch.net/images/s..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you can't see the chin white here though

Those last two foals you posted, with the white on the face that looks like it's trying to wrap around the eyes making these two patches. That reminds me of some other Paint horses, be they Frame, Tobiano, or Tobiano + lord knows what. I've seen that expression a lot, and now I wonder if this is DW, then some of these Tobiano/Sabino or Frame/Sabino horses out there may be DW instead of Sabino? Or is DW and Sabino used interchangeably, like how Frame and Overo.

The reason I think new mutation is because they seem to come out of nowhere and they aren't allowed to cross breed.

I don't think they came out of no where. According to to American Hackney Society it's common to have white on the head and legs. These odd balls that just popped up, I think are loud expression of the genes. I'm trying to find old historic photos, but pretty much every hackney I come across on line has white legs and white on the head.

Just posting some photos I've found and tossing a theory or two around.

Print from The Illustrated London News Dated 1888, Hackney Horse Show: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/N1630..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Print from the 1890 London Horse Show Prince Wales Hackney Moore Cup: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/N1670..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Print of the 1902 Antique Portrait Roan Billy Norfolk Hackney Horse: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F1171..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1913 Champion Hackney Stallion Hopwood Viceroy Horse: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F1241..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1914 Horse Hackney Cudham Marjorie Beckingham Grace: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F1251..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (you can see the white on the head on this one); http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F1251..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1914 Horse Hopwood Viceroy Stallion Hackney Show: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F1251..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1915 Horses Polo Pony Stallion Victory Hackney Vigorous: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F1251..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1919 Brocklebanks Hackney Horses Grey Optimistic Sport: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F1261..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (not sure of the leg white on this one)

Kew Bridge Thames London Hackney Show Horse Horses 1900: http://www.prints-4-u.com/store/images/6..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1906 Photograph Horse Mr Ramsay Diplomatist Hackney: http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/A1191..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; interesting legs

Stallion Dufferin Haven, no date: http://www.hackney.ca/Dufferin_Haven_2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gah omg, there are so many images on that website. But I think you get the drift LOL.

Any way, the Hackney was used to improve other breeds like the Gelderlander. And one of the first Gelderlanders I've ever seen had loud 'sabino' markings on the head and leg. So I wonder now, if thats where they get them from. Google searching them most of them have the same white markings.

I looked up Norfolk-Roadster, which is what the Hackney used to be called(?) and found an image of a Norfolk-Roadster Cross, the first image of this site: http://www.torihobune.ee/English/history..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Heldenknabe, and Hingstar where two of his sons, Hindo was his grandson.

Well, all of those look true sabino to me, unlike these weird ones.

But like Frame, can't Splash be something as minimal as a sock?

But like Frame, can't Splash be something as minimal as a sock?

Yes, but those Hackneys IMO don't LOOK splash. Splash once it gets as loud as those Hackneys are almost ALWAYS has MUCH more face white than those do.

Exactly. They really look DW, but the more minimal ones really don't... that's why I think new DW mutation(s). They're proving to be *relatively* common.

What would a horse look like if it expressed DW and Sabino at the same time.

Your guess is as good as mine, but I somewhat doubt there'd be much difference.

This hole Sabino and DW thing confuses me. When word of different sabino like patterns made way to my ears they were considered Sabino and were being labled 1,2,3 ect. Now they are considered Dominate White, where as I thought dominate white was something entirely different. So I've heard people now say that sabino and DW are not the same. But what makes them so different? I realize there are different levels of white expression in various breeds that are thought to be different then other breeds, but I'm unclear as to why sabino is the kid left out of doggy doggy where's your bone.

I think DW would have been called sabino before they found all the DW's. But it's called DW not sabino because it's inherited differently. I think supposed to be a dominant gene as opposed to sb1 being umm... incomplete dominant? Someone will come on soon who knows the way it works much better than me LOL!

Exactly. Dominant white is a gene that can produce an all white horse in the heterozygosu form and is believed embryonic lethal in the homozygous form. Sabino is an incomplete dominant gene that produces minimal (to possibly moderate) white in heterozygous form and all white in homozygous form (and is not lethal).

Got yah. But then..would there still be a unknown controller for expression? I mean if two sabino carrying hackneys got together and made obviously more sabino hackneys, what's repressed the expression of these markings the last....3 decades? Wouldn't we have seen an entirely white hackney by now?

Not necessarily. Some lines of sabinos don't seem to produce full whites. The only one we know of for sure that does is SB1. It's possible there are other forms of sabino that don't EVER produce all white.

@_@ oh gods...so there's going to be like...11 DW's and how many sabinos XD lol. Darn it all. Can't we finish discovering one gene before we open a loaded can of worms for others LOL. SO FRUSTRATING.

ROFL!!! There are likely as many sabinos as there are DWs IMO. Blame the KIT gene. It just seems to LOVE to mutate. :rofl:

That's crazy!!

This guy almost looks tobi:
http://www.freewebs.com/hackneyhorseshow..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But there's a also a splash feel to it, save for the minimal face white. HEY!!! Maybe they are splash and tobi and they're restricting each other!! :rofl I'm kidding... but really, they're weird.