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*thud* *faints* Color people heads up...

accphotography March 22, 2010 February 22, 2011

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Probably one of the coolest colors I've EVER seen! [img]http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/fohlen/Daydream%20Believer/Nov…]

tjuri Thu, 04/08/2010 - 07:25

[quote="accphotography"]If that were the case we'd see classic roans out of two rabicano parents... I can't say I've ever heard of that.[/quote]

You've got me wrong ACC - what I actually mean is that since both patterns are similar, the locations might be near each other (like sabino-1 and DW resembles each other in some mutations).
So I thought it might be possible that some horses carry both genes - I have seen at least one horse which does not change the color like classic roans and she has some stripes on the barrel and stays the same color all year round (like a rabicano), plus this mare has offspring that shows regular classic roan charateristics meaning they DO change their color during the seasons.

That said we know from cream and pearl that there are dilutions which feed from each other, why not also white patterns?
This is the mare (second from top), I will try to get more photos soon:
http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_Far…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the sire of all her roan foals, 5 in a row, he tested positive for cream and dun:
http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_Far…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Her foals:
at the top:
http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_Far…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
at the top:
http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_Far…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
third:
http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_Far…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
at the top:
http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_Far…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
at the top:
http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_Far…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tjuri Thu, 04/08/2010 - 07:28

[quote="RiddleMeThis"]I dont see any brindling or rabicano charecteristics on the CAB roans.

They look like typical Roans to me.
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/…]
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/…]
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/…]

There is some striping on the barrel which looks like rabicano to me. The top of the tail shows white hair as well and there is no clearly shaped "V" on the legs.

RiddleMeThis Thu, 04/08/2010 - 14:08

[quote="tjuri"]

There is some striping on the barrel which looks like rabicano to me. The top of the tail shows white hair as well and there is no clearly shaped "V" on the legs.[/quote]
That rib striping happens from ALL types of roaning, and does the roaning on the top of the tail head, and not all roans have the V on the legs.

None of that points to these horses having rabicano IMO.

tjuri Thu, 04/08/2010 - 14:47

[quote="RiddleMeThis"][quote="tjuri"]

There is some striping on the barrel which looks like rabicano to me. The top of the tail shows white hair as well and there is no clearly shaped "V" on the legs.[/quote]
That rib striping happens from ALL types of roaning, and does the roaning on the top of the tail head, and not all roans have the V on the legs.

None of that points to these horses having rabicano IMO.[/quote]

I don't agree on this. Maybe the V might be not so clearly shaped but If you look here at the photos and read the descriptions of both classic roan and rabicano, that is what I have seen so far too, striping on the barrel is very common with rabicano, I don't think I have ever seen it with classic roan. None of the classic roans posted there show it.
But then it might be that there are different mutations of classic roan in several breeds.
http://www.equine-color.info/v/white/ro…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What are your thoughts and others on the mare and her offspring I posted?

RiddleMeThis Thu, 04/08/2010 - 15:36

[quote="tjuri"]I don't agree on this. Maybe the V might be not so clearly shaped but If you look here at the photos and read the descriptions of both classic roan and rabicano, that is what I have seen so far too, striping on the barrel is very common with rabicano, I don't think I have ever seen it with classic roan. None of the classic roans posted there show it.
But then it might be that there are different mutations of classic roan in several breeds.
http://www.equine-color.info/v/white/ro…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What are your thoughts and others on the mare and her offspring I posted?[/quote]
The V is common on roans, but not having a V doesn't make them NOT True Roan, and having striping on the barrel, or white in the tail head doesn't make them Rabicano.

This mare is obviously True Roan, yet the roaning on her legs stops well before her knees with no V, and no white in her tail head
http://www.jnbarquarterhorses.com/image…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not True Roan, but exactly what I was thining of when I said "all types of roan can cause rib stripes)
[img]http://www.whirlwindhorses.co.uk/images…]

And heres a true roan with rib striping, and no white in his tail head. And an interesting tidbit about him, his dam is one of the few bay silver QHs.
[img]http://cloud.equinenow.com/129202_1/aqh…]

(And back to an earlier subject, check out he roaning all the way down to this ones ankles [img]http://www.cphorses.ca/images/01-21/408…] )

And just for fun, check out the awesome dapples
[img]http://www.robinsnestfarms.com/catalog/…]

As far as the mare, she obviously is True Roan and could be sabino roan (which is fairly rampant in the breed) and/or rabicano.

tjuri Fri, 04/09/2010 - 16:34

RMT, thanks for the interesting photos - and yes, I have seen striping in LP horses before but it just did not tick my box for roaning right away.

If there is consens on this board about barrel striping occuring in all kinds of roaning, then this description about rabicano I pointed to should be modified:
http://www.equine-color.info/node/15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for this mare you posted, you can't see a V on this photo even it is was there... :rofl
Why should a classic roan have a white tail head? I did not say that... :?

How did the foal's legs turn out when they were older?

The dappling looks similar to the lacing I have seen on roans, especially black roans. Cool! 8-)
Check mares/Moki:
http://www.littlecayuseranch.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But this one you posted could be brown I think.

Thanks for your opinion on the mare, I would like to hear more opinions on her if somebody else might want to share? ;)

RiddleMeThis Fri, 04/09/2010 - 17:24

Ill grab the other photo of the mare where it clearly shows the front of her legs with no V. It stops at the front in the same place it does on the sides.

As for changing the description on Rabicano, there's no need. Rabican does cause rib stripes, but so does everything else. That doesn't make the description about Rabicano causing them incorrect.

I believe that Foal is an 09 or 08 so no adult photos yet, but I will go make sure when I get home.

As for me pointing out the roans either had a white tail head or Not was to be clear that Rabicano was Not the cause for any of the Roaning. I personally think roan can and does add Roaning to both the mane and tail.

RiddleMeThis Fri, 04/09/2010 - 21:52

Here is another angle where you can clearly see theres no V on that mares legs
http://www.jnbarqu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; arterhorses.com/images/1332-Filly.jpg

The sire of that extensively roaned colt (who is an 08 and I cant find another photo of)
[img]http://www.cphorses.ca/images/01-05/mrr…]

He also has the potential to be homozygous roan (stallion not the colt).

accphotography Fri, 04/09/2010 - 23:32

If they are closely linked than wouldn't most roans have rabicano and vice versa? Or wouldn't any horse with both nearly always pass them together? I'm not even sure I can recall seeing a roan with rabicano.

I think it's just as plausible that his brindling caused the white (there are plenty of white striped brindles who never produced roans/rabicanos) and that he happened to have a roan mutation in his sperm cells.

Sara Sat, 04/10/2010 - 00:29

My thought, which I know I have mentioned before but it's been a long time, is that there are parts of certain horses' bodies that tend to collect color. So, on horses who have whatever causes this mystery "vertical striping", whatever pattern or modifier they have is concentrated into brindle-type stripes. It could be sooty, sabino ticking, rabicano, or even just one of those hair patterns that is the same color as the base coat but that you can see in certain lights or from certain angles. I've seen horses with all these things called brindle. (This, of course, does not include the brindles that are actually chimeras.)

I have no idea about CAB's offspring though. That one is a mystery to me.

tjuri Sat, 04/10/2010 - 08:28

[quote="RiddleMeThis"]
As for changing the description on Rabicano, there's no need. Rabican does cause rib stripes, but so does everything else. That doesn't make the description about Rabicano causing them incorrect.
[/quote]

I did not think of changing the description of rabicano but maybe adding the possible striping to the other roans? ;)

tjuri Sat, 04/10/2010 - 08:35

[quote="TwinCreeksFarm"]Possibly that rabicano and roan are closely linked, so maybe there was a simple cross over/mutation in his genome that he passed to his babes. <-- My theory.[/quote]

That theory sounds very logical to me, I think since that KIT is so prone to develop mutations - as seen in DW - that might happen once in a while AND would explain some unusual roaning patterns!
Good thought, TCF! :flower ;)

Daylene Alford Sat, 04/10/2010 - 08:49

tjuri,

I agree that the wording in the rabicano section could be confusing give me a few days to work on a rewrite.

Some really fascinating theories in this thread! I love the one about roan, rabicano, and Catch A Bird. If however they were closely linked wouldn't wouldn't a classic type roan have shown up in TB before now?

Daylene

Maigray Sat, 04/10/2010 - 09:08

The pattern the hair makes as it overlays the ribs can look like striping in the right light, but unless the pigment has actually been organized into a distinct pattern, I don't think it counts. I had never associated rib striping with classic roan. I mean, if you look at the photo of the horse fronting our rabicano description, right off you can see the striping. That's why it's in the description, since it's blatantly there. It doesn't seem to happen that often, mainly when the pattern is more heavy. That horse is the only one who exhibits it in our examples; however, none of the classic roan examples have it at all. It wouldn't make much sense to put it in our description when we ourselves can't agree on it and we don't have an example of it.

RiddleMeThis Sat, 04/10/2010 - 12:44

[quote="Maigray"] It wouldn't make much sense to put it in our description when we ourselves can't agree on it and we don't have an example of it.[/quote]
If everyone here had to agree unanimously with everything, there would be nothing in any description :booty :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

tjuri Sat, 04/10/2010 - 13:23

Well, as far as I am concerned, I always enjoy the discussions on this board since it's not necessary you agree on everything because we all know genetics is a work in progress! :flower

That said I would like to share some more rabicano pics with barrel striping :twisted: :lol:
scroll down to MP Zorro and MP Merlin:
http://www.manyponies.com/mphorses&newo…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...the sire of both horses also displaying skunk tail-head and striping on the barrel and I would like to point out that the horses at this farm don't show any ribs... :lol: :rofl it's pigmentation in the hair:
http://www.manyponies.com/stallions/S%2…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jenks Sat, 04/10/2010 - 18:54

[quote="RiddleMeThis"][quote="Maigray"] It wouldn't make much sense to put it in our description when we ourselves can't agree on it and we don't have an example of it.[/quote]
If everyone here had to agree unanimously with everything, there would be nothing in any description :booty :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl[/quote]

I know it's hard to believe, but I think we agree on more than we all disagree on! :toast

Daylene Alford Mon, 04/12/2010 - 12:35

I rewrote the the rabicano description slightly.

[quote]Rabicano adds white hairs in the coat, starting at the base of the tail and the flanks. In minimal form, it can express as a only few white hairs at the base of the tail. With extreme expression, it can extend up to the shoulders and even the chest of the animal, and put white patches behind the ears. It can also form striping on the barrel and put white hairs into the tail. The stripping on the barrel seems to occur more often with rabicano than with other white patterns. Rabicano is sometimes referred to as a skunktail or silvertail. The inheritance of rabicano is not understood.[/quote]