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The color term Seal

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JNFerrigno
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The color term Seal

So I have been researching Pit Bull colors, and have found quite a few people refer to their dog as being Seal. In equine terms, these dogs would look like faded blacks. I'm not sure if any test breedings have been done or not. Owners describe their seal dogs as looking black at first, but if standing next to a true black dog, they have faded hairs though out their coats. From the images I have found, I think their nose is black, so that would rule out brown. Any thoughts? http://www.adbadog.com/p_gallary.asp?aid... http://www.adbadog.com/p_gallary.asp?aid... http://www.adbadog.com/p_gallary.asp?aid... http://www.adbadog.com/p_gallary.asp?aid... all one dog with different lighting http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320... http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320... http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320... http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320... http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd307... http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m189/... side by side  http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320... http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320... http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320...

Daylene Alford
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This is along the lines of

This is along the lines of something I have been wondering for some time. Most likely these dogs are faded dominant black. Much like the faded blacks we see in horses. It is also possible that being homozygous or heterozygous for dominant black can affect the "shade" of the coat, however, I don't know if this is even possible.

I have a dog that I think currently fits into this category. I'll see if I can't get a pic.

Threnody
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The faded black came to mind

The faded black came to mind as well. Looks like similar variation seen in black horses. I'm curious about how well dominant black covers. I know one dog who is dominant black, but you can see very very faint hints of tricolor markings around the eyes and muzzle.

Daylene Alford
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What about a dog with a black

What about a dog with a black stripe down his back? I've only ever seen one of these that I can recall IRL and was only able to locate one picture on the internet (not that I spent alot of time looking). The dog had a bold black stripe down his back, the entire width and length, and black paws but his lower body and legs were brown/tan. I wish I had a picture of him but I don't.

I haven't been able to find any information on what might cause that phenotype.

Daylene Alford
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http://lostdogsandiego.com/lo

http://lostdogsandiego.com/lost/view/15041/

This is the picture I found on the internet. The dog I was referring to was darker. With the lighter areas on the dog in the picture being black.

JNFerrigno
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Very interesting. Would that

Very interesting. Would that not just be a concentrated sable? Also, contacted Sponenberg about Seal since his name is many canine color genetics

"Sponenberg, D. Phillip
1:23 PM (2 hours ago)

to me
This one is confusing. The dominant black that occurs at Extension in several species (but not the dog!) is somewhat weak and leaky, and many time it will result in "off black" rather than "true black" animals. I don't know if that happens in dogs, but in my own dogs many of the black ones are "off black" and have shadows of other patterns. So, that could be all that this is. I'm not sure if it would be all that easy to figure out genetically, because that would depend on very accurate classification of entire litters at maturity.

sorry to be of so little help on this one…"

JNFerrigno
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So I went on to three

So I went on to three different Bully Breed forums and asked them what they thought was behind the Seal color. I also asked if any dogs had been tested, and if they had recorded any breedings and litters. So I'm going to keep track of any information I find here. Would be nice to get them tested to be sure.

This female is Seal, sire is a Red Nose, dam was a Fawn http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.p...! there are some photos of her litter as well. This is what the owner had to say about her,
"Onyx is considered seal and white. She has a black nose and lips. Her private parts are not a solid color and her belly is spotted. She's always had skin problems and allergies her whole life... so she probably isn't a good subject for this topic as she's usually inflamed and reddish.
Her sire was red and white in coat color with a red nose.
Her dam was fawn and white in coat color with a black nose.
They produced seal and whites and fawn and whites."

Following Up: Asking her who she bred her to.

This dog http://www.pitbull-chat.com/gallery/show... This is what her owner had to say "Her points are black as can be, and last shed she was very black with a reddish sheen in the sun, but after this shed..... It just does not photograph!! Many of the hair on my dog is a different color. Not a brindle striped dog.. but the actual hair has various colors, like when you pluck a guard hair off of a GSD. Pattern wise, she has the blackest back, ears are black and anywhere bone is close to the surface, like shin bones and even the bones in her feet, she is blacker than black. but the rest of her basecoat is the intermingled black, rich deep brown, and deep gold. Just in the lst 6 weeks, she has added silver striped fur. If you pluck a hair it is bicolored dark and silver. They are sprinkled down her butt cheeks, up from her armpits, and to her "under ear" area. Black nose, lips, private areas and pads. Unfortunately she is a craigslist dog, no idea the genetics behind her."

The photos here of Slayer are seal http://www.pitbull-chat.com/member.php?2... the other said her belly is not dark.

Follow Up: asking dog owners the color of their skin, since I've only dealt with light colored dogs.

This girl https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hph... is Pedigreed and the other has offered to let me look into her pedigree.

JNFerrigno
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This is the pedigree,

This is the pedigree, including pictures of the dog from the last post http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american...

There is also a AmStaff pedigree database, http://dogs-world-pedigrees.com/amstaff/...

Daylene Alford
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I could have sworn I

I could have sworn I responded to this....I guess I forgot to hit send.

I really can't tell much difference between many of the dogs they are calling "seal" and black. I wish I could see them in person.

I look forward to hearing more about your research into this. I did notice that in the pedigree the dog would have to be heterozygous for Dominant Black.

JNFerrigno
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I don't know why, but this

I don't know why, but this part of the forum gives you a preview option, then you have to send it. I had responded to your post about that other dog, and when I came back the next day, it was gone, it's that clicking it a second time to send it which throws me off.

This had a snippit on Seal, a UK site http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/liver.htm

And I emailed Sponenberg again, and got this:
"Well, I think the bottom line is that whatever it is, dogs are complicated!

You understand the K locus alleles. The question is how they interact with the other colors, and whether any of them "leak" when paired with yellows of Agouti or Extension.

I'd also bet that there are some other mutations at these loci lurking out there in some breeds. We already know that for a recessive Agouti black, and I'd wonder about another dominant black at Extension.

Gets complicated!"

What I want to know, and maybe you can help me without having to bother the man again LOL. What happens when the dog is E/aa? Is there recessive K gene which will not make dominate black, brindle, or yellow?

And then here: http://www.ultimatepitbullforum.com/view... there is a breeder who owns this website http://www.workingpitbull.com/ She had a rescue Pit that she crossed into her line and the litter produced seal pups. She said she bred it out of her line, and is currently getting together some information on the pedigrees and what methods she used to breed.

Daylene Alford
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Quote:I don't know why, but

I don't know why, but this part of the forum gives you a preview option, then you have to send it.

Yep, was driving me crazy. I finally found the setting needed to fix it.

The recessive K gene (Ky) is the one that allows agouti to express. So a dog that is recessive at K will be fawn, sable, wolf, etc.

Dogs that are E/aa are know as recessive black and as far as I know is visually indistinguishable from dominant black. Recessive black is only found in a few breeds. There is a partial list somewhere on the forum. I'm fairly sure pit bulls don't carry it. So all these dogs will have to be dominant black KB. I'm curious if they are all heterozygous for dominant black or if there is something else.

JNFerrigno
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Sorry should have worded it

Sorry should have worded it better. Doesn't a recessive black have to have a K gene....so is it Ky that allowed that black to show through? I thought it added yellow to the coat. Or is there a different gene?

Daylene Alford
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Yes, that is correct. It is

Yes, that is correct. It is Ky that allows reccessive black to show. It doesn't "add yellow" it simply allows the agouti alleles to express.

JNFerrigno
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K, thank you! I'm writing up

K, thank you! I'm writing up some color genetics for a canine game, will have to run them past you guys lol!

Phoolf
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Hi there, I know this is a

Hi there,

I know this is a very old topic (although not years old or I wouldnt bother bumping it) but I was linked to this thread because of my dogs colouring. Just to say she is seal colour and has a black stripe down her back with the rest of her body being dark brown/seal/not true black. She is an Am Bull x with possibly pit in there from generations back. I've found this thread really informative so thank you!

Daylene Alford
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Yes I know I'm resurrecting a long dead thread...However

I came across a photo on this thread http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?82593-Seal-color/page3   Scroll down a little over half way till you see the post by  PeytonLove  

Really interesting!  I so wish I could find a photo the mut we had.  He had exactly the same coloration except even more extreme.  A black wide stripe down his back tanish lower body and legs and black feet.  I have never seen another dog that color. He had long hair as well so I wonder if that made a difference.  

Daylene Alford
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I did find a picture of the

I did find a picture of the dog I had mentioned earlier.  The only photo I could find is a puppy pic.  (I clipped out the person in the pic.)  

As he got older his dark receded until all that was left was around his face, a wide black stripe down his back, and the black paws.  Now that I've found those puppy pics he was probably just a dark sable but it sure looked weird.  

Windchyme
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Seal puppy born around 9/15/13

I know, an old thread. My mom picked up a puppy you might be interested in that was dumped off a walking skeleton at about 10-12 weeks at the park near her house. She saw the people shoving it out of the car. This puppy is truly seal colored (maybe not genetically but visually very much). She has black nose and pads, mostly pink belly. Yes she is this color all over with a slightly blacker line down the back and darker lower legs and paws (with a little white) She also has a bit of white on her chest. From a distance in a dimmer room she looks black but get up close or in bright light and she's this rich seal brown...once my mom got her eating and her coat shined up, her body looks just like a seal. Yes she has a pit type body with the bunchy muscle groups, wide chest etc....you know what I am talking about. She looks like a half pit I had before who was a brindle....this color but with the brindle stripes. This one looks like she wants to be a brindle like that with the base color but someone forgot to send her body the stripes memo.

Seal Puppy

Daylene Alford
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Oh neat!  Would you be able

Oh neat!  Would you be able to get a full body shot?  I'd very much like to see her body coloring.

rabia
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Seal? Sable? What would you call it?

I have a street dog from Taiwan.  He is brown with wheat/tan highlights (side of neck, shoulder blades, backs of back legs) and black feet, muzzle, and stripe on his back.  Many Taiwan dogs are this color.  It doesn't photograph well, as the highlights sometimes read as glossiness or shine so I've attached a link to a video of him.  Please excuse the inane conversation in the video.  Thanks for any input into why he's colored thevway he is and what to call it.

 

http://youtu.be/PXaKgg6Dh9U

Daylene Alford
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I have searched everywhere

I have searched everywhere for a dog this color.  It is exactly the color of a dog we used to own.  We lost him quite young and the only photo I have is the puppy pic posted above.  

I have wondered for years what color he really was.  He was supposedly part Rottweiler and part lab but has his full brother was a wild-type agouti he had something else in there as well.  I have finally decided he was just a strange sable but I still wonder.  

So, I can honestly say I don't know what color.   Would you be willing to test him?  I'd really love to know the test results for agouti.  

Daylene Alford
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Actually thinking about it, I

Actually thinking about it, I'd like to know the test results for dominant black as well.  

rabia
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Agouti?

How would I test?  He's a street dog, most likely a high percentage Formosan Mountain Dog.  Dogs his coloring are ALL OVER Taiwan.  I'd not seen any here in the US.

Daylene Alford
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You pull a few hairs with the

You pull a few hairs with the roots attached and sent it to UC Davis or Animal Genetics.  It would be $40 for the dominant Black test.  I've decided dominant black is the one I'd like to see the most.  

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/...
http://www.animalgenetics.com/Canine/Can... 

I would really really love to see these results.  

rabia
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Moving in a week a half

As soon as I'm settled in I'll order the test.

MarlosNCarlos
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Marla is the one with the

Marla is the one with the vest collar(Staff terr./bully) is this seal? I had always assumed chocolate, but the black streka and durastic color change via light always made me wonder.

Daylene Alford
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I can't tell from those

I can't tell from those pictures.  If the skin is diluted it is chocolate.  If the skin is black it is seal. 

apbtlover
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I have a true black female

I have a true black female(smaller one) and what i believe to be a seal i will post 2 pics of them the first is at 5 weeks the second is at 17 weeks, and then i will add some that are of him in different lighting and "poses" these were all taken with my phones camera, he doesnt stay still long enough outside for me to get a picture. Sorry for the late posting but just found your forum. If you want more pics just let me know

Daylene Alford
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I agree.  He looks to be that

I agree.  He looks to be that almost black color that is called seal.  It's to bad we still don't know what causes the difference between seal and black.  

Would you be willing to test him for dominant black?

bowserpup
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I stumbled over here looking

I stumbled over here looking up information on my dogs coat... saw a post (now it's a few years old) about dog with a dark stripe down the back-- My dog has a very pronounced black stripe with the rest of his coat being seal... (plus white feet and chest/stomach with black spots). Just thought I'd share :)

rabia
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testing

I got an email update from this thread and I had promised to get Luka tested.  I will test him for dominant black and agouti.

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