The Colors of Life

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color mystery

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Danni
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Re: color mystery

There are heaps of Gypsies with those sort of markings, they seem to be really popular right now

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

I had never heard of MH being caused by Frame until I went on US and Canadian Forums. We have not had Frame until recently, there was NO Frame in GCs until recently, and yet we have had MH all over the place!! Sabino, IME is what actually causes MH...... Splash helps it, both of which we have in spades!

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tjuri
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Re: color mystery

I think what appears to be a medicine hat in the Isabella picture is actually a flower in the horse's browband.

Nope, the flower is in front of the ears if you look close. If you compare this color and the color of the ears of the horse in the last link below, they are very similar. I guess they are roaned by sabino.

Here are some links with horses showing the Medicine Hat pattern - all of them tested positive for frame - tobiano does not exist in that breed - so the opposite situation as in the Gypsy breed. Horses with splash and sabino alone never show that Medicine Hat pattern - at least in this breed. Lots of white yes, but no MH or War Bonnet possible then:

http://www.manyponies.com/maresfillies/g..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/maresfillies/m..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/geldings/scoot..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/stallions/come..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/articles/medha..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/stallions/danc..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/stallions/spec..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/images/dreamer..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.manyponies.com/geldings/G%20P..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

Splash and Sabino, however, does, and it these patterns that cause MH!!!
I have never heard of Frame causing MH, although, form the way it mimics Splash and vice versa, there is no obvious reason why it could not.

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rodeoratdogs
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Re: color mystery

Here are 2 mares that would consider medicine hats that I owned, they were both positive for Frame and tobiano, but I'm sure they carried more that just that, probably sabino and splash as well.....pics are on the pedigrees.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mia+thir..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/itsjusta..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Danni
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Re: color mystery

Here are some links with horses showing the Medicine Hat pattern - all of them tested positive for frame - tobiano does not exist in that breed - so the opposite situation as in the Gypsy breed. Horses with splash and sabino alone never show that Medicine Hat pattern - at least in this breed. Lots of white yes, but no MH or War Bonnet possible then:

Obviously there is a lot of combinations that can get the MH markings, it's more just that the top of the head/ears seem to be the last to lose the colour?

Monsterpony
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Re: color mystery

I think that the body is very protective of the ears maintaining color since it is so important for the inner ear to be pigmented.

.

accphotography
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Re: color mystery

Even dominant white usually leaves the ears alone.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

rodeoratdogs
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Re: color mystery

True, that's why I always thought it was weird that Illusion even had 1 white ear, you just don't see white ears that oftened.

Danni
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Re: color mystery

Splash, I think it is, seems to sometimes end up making white ears. Get quite a few in the Gypsies, but then there is also heaps with white heads and coloured ears.

rodeoratdogs
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Re: color mystery

Yeah splash making the ears white makes sense to me.

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

I have no idea if they were related to the Cream ponies that pulled Queen Victorias children's various carts at London and on the Isle of Wight. She donated some to London Zoo and they were still at Whipsnade Zoo around twenty years ago, as they were interbreeding with the Prjwalsky's horses, which did not please the curator at all!!

This reminded me of Bill and Ben the world's oldest horse twins who gave pony rides at the London Zoo . They are both Cremello. They were born in 1983 so I really doubt any Hanoverian Royal Cream link. ^_^ They are very cute though.

http://simplymarvelous.wordpress.com/200..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I once heard that a zoo put Mongolian Wild Horses and Zebras together in the same exhibit and had lil baby hybrids, I'd want to see what them and the pony zebroids looked like :P

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

Horses and Zebras do not breed without a lot of "help". There was a white (grey?) stallion running wild in South Africa for a number of years at the turn of the last century, but he never bred with the Zebras, and even Zebras of different types will not normally interbreed....
The Cream ponies at Whipsnade have been around more than a century, they were at London Zoo before Whipsnade existed.

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peruvianpasogal
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Re: color mystery

Pretty sure they were Champagne + Cream.

As of yet champagne is still a North American gene and only found in North American breeds (unless crossed and imported out, and I dont think HC's are a North American breed.

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

I'm guessing Pearl Cream at this point. I took a picture of a Buckskin Pearl and converted it to black and white. It looked extremely similar to the photo of the Royal Cream named Pistachio on the new dilutions website.

Jenks
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Re: color mystery

I so enjoyed all the pics and this discussion!

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

Now hang on, the American Cream is known to be Champagne in part, at least and they are Belgian based.......

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Morgan
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Re: color mystery

I'd love to see photos of Medicine Hats that tested negative for frame, if you have some to share that would be nice.

It's not a little ear hat but I consider V a medicine hat. Not tested but both parents are neg and she's DNA verified so good as:
IMAGE(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs381.ash2/65959_1642215699302_1354112850_1658372_6512637_n.jpg)
Shows just how much tobiano and splash alone can take off the body :P If the splash had put up a bit more of a fight on the head it would be completely bald too.

Danni
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Re: color mystery

Oh that just reminded me of a cob I took pictures of in England. She'd be tobi/splash/sabino. She's a medicine hat isn't she?

IMAGE(http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/6005/2794134050034584314S425x425Q85.jpg) IMAGE(http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/4217/2136629570034584314S425x425Q85.jpg)

IMAGE(http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/6025/2500126440034584314S425x425Q85.jpg) IMAGE(http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/46586/2942322170034584314S425x425Q85.jpg)

lipigirl
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Re: color mystery

Looks like a medicine hat to me too - of course with no frame.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

Yes, she is a classic Medicine Hat, and rather a nice mare, too. If it were not for all the hype with the Gypsy Cobs, I should be a lot more amenable towards them....

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peruvianpasogal
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Re: color mystery

Now hang on, the American Cream is known to be Champagne in part, at least and they are Belgian based.......

But the champagen doesnt appear to have come from the belgian side of the heritage probably from a light breed.

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Peruvianpasogal is right.
The American Cream Draft got the champagne gene from a mare called Old Granny who was found in 1913. She had no known pedigree or background. Champagne has been furthest traced in American Saddlebreds in the mid 1800's. Either it originated in Saddlebreds, or in horses used to develop Saddlebreds.

Daylene Alford
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Re: color mystery

Any takers that it came from the original Spanish Jennet through the nagasat (sp?) pacer?

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: color mystery

Narragasset Pacer, and probably not, as I recall that the NP was used to help develop what became the standardbred.

Diane

Daylene Alford
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Re: color mystery

Ahh thank you. I knew it started with an N but couldn't remember enough of how to spell it to get google to find it.

It was used to help develop the Standardbred and it also thought to be the source of gait in most, if not all north american breeds, including the gaited Morgan lines. The Narragasset Pacer was probably developed using a combination of English and Spanish bloodlines.

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: color mystery

Yeah, some "confusion" as to what was behind the breed, as they were developed in the late 1600s/early 1700s, but were mostly bred out/exported by the 1800s.

Diane

Threnody
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Resurrecting this thread

Resurrecting this thread because a few pages ago there were some lovely paintings and discussions on Hanoverian Royal Creams. I think I just found the holy grail of HRC paintings and I have to share it with you all. I just wish it was higher resolution so we could see the details!

http://www.myartprints.co.uk/a/lacretell...

This was painted during the 1800's.

Billygoatsgruff
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that stallion looks like a

that stallion looks like a smokey cream? just a darker one... I think the second (dilute) stallion was done up in the same colour for simplicities sake.

almost reminds me of these two pearls : http://www.newdilutions.com/pearl/Gypsy/... / http://www.newdilutions.com/pearl/Iberia...

but it doesn't seem to look the right colour still for pearl?

And I know this was an older thread but I recently read it and just re-read it and a question came up: How do we absolutely 100% positively know that the champagne mutation started "in" America? If it could be traced with the Narragasset pacer horse, how do you know it isn't traced back farther?

I'd like to think that a spanish horse at some point carried champagne or some mutation. It honestly seems the most logical thing.

Threnody
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Every time I find more about

Every time I find more about the creams the more I have no idea what caused them. They really do look like double creams or cream pearls. I need to post my grayscale comparison pics.

As far as champange, the fact that it is exclusively in the American breeds is a pointer to that being the main scenario. Also a change in environment is a catalyst for mutation. Much like how speciation occurs much faster in animals introduced to a new environment or island.

In the few centuries since horses were reintroduced to the Americas in the 1500's, new mutations such as Lethal White Overo and Dominant Curly developed which are both non-KIT mutations exclusive to American breeds. The numbers for these traits increased through selective breeding by humans.

Most American breeds, like the Cream Draft, used local horses of no or mixed pedigree in their development at some point where champagne could have easily been introduced.

Could champagne have mutated in Europe? Anything is possible since gene testing didn't exist back in those days, but IMO the evidence is leaning closer towards it first occurring in the Americas.

EDIT: Link to comparison photos.

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283...

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