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color mystery

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tjuri
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Re: color mystery

It is meant to be pink skin and the eyes of many horses were blue. Hence I would think splash and frame were at play in that breed besides other white patterns. Frame is possible because it could have come from Spanish stallions they used. There have been paintings and descriptions that imply frame was present in old Spain but was outbred - but it survived in the Americas, probably hidden in some solids.

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Do you have any examples of the possible frames in paintings? I actually go through art archives looking for colors and patterns of horses represented in them. (Finding the elusive wild bay in an 1800's painting was like finding a needle in a haystack)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egy..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I cant find a whole body picture of this horse online so I may have to take a picture from the one book I have that shows it. But this egyptian carriage horse always reminded me of the frame pattern. There is no way to now how close to 100% accurate the representations of horses were that far back, but I still find it intriguing.

Daylene Alford
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Re: color mystery

Are you sure its meant to be pink skin?

1) It is a different shade than the nostril which is indeed pink and the eye is dark.
2) The artists seems to paint his subject true to life in other areas (ie the plain rider).

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

A quick search in my files - all paintings are by Hamilton:

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

...but then - this painter knew how to paint a tobiano correctly:

RiddleMeThis
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Re: color mystery

I too am fairly certain it's just pink skin. It's the same shades/tones and the nose which is IMO obviously pink.

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Danni
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Re: color mystery

Yeh I reckon it's pink skin too, they have made it so obvious so I reckon the pink skin must have stood out to the painter

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Thanks tjuri! Those really are expressions of multiple pinto that lend themselves to having frame in the mix.

Here's that wild bay I mentioned before:
http://www.bridgemanartondemand.com/art/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scroll down to see a not great, but full body picture of that possible frame Egyptian chariot horse.
http://www.spanishjennet.org/history.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree that the one cream horse in that painting looks like it has pink skin.
Are we guessing cream possibly pearl and various pinto for them at this point?

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

Thanks for the links! The chariot horse is definetely frame IMO. Great find!

The other paintings on that site reminded me to this Medicine Hat - complete with shield on his chest: It can't be more Spanish than with Isabella on board... :angle

Then some more from different artists:

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

and some:

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

Now another tobi and splash and DW/sabino(?):

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Those are interesting. Some defiantly look like splash.

Ren Renfa's paintings from the 1200's are always fascinating.

Here is a dun and multiple pinto.
http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/63Arts..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A gray and silver.
http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/77Arts..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The one at the top of this page looks frame with the facial blaze and everything.
http://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/pai..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And a case of history repeating itself with binder marked duns.
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

Those are great, thanks - some of the Ren Renfras are on my wall... ymwhisle if you are interested in large scans, send me a PM. :ymsmug:

I will keep my eyes open for wild bays for you...

I like how you set up the comparison between the marked duns! :flower
Is binder marked what others call bloody shoulder?

So far it seems to me that frame is either a very old mutation, found from Asia to Iberia and later bred out for several reasons in the European breeds then brought to the Americas by the conquistadors where it flourished - or it developed independently several times over the centuries.

Danni
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Re: color mystery

So far it seems to me that frame is either a very old mutation, found from Asia to Iberia and later bred out for several reasons in the European breeds then brought to the Americas by the conquistadors where it flourished - or it developed independently several times over the centuries.

I'm not convinced they are frames? They look more of a splashed white or sabino types? Or could just as easily explained as depending on what you wanted them to be!

Third Peppermint
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Re: color mystery

Is binder marked what others call bloody shoulder?

Bider markings. ;) They're connected with Mongolian and Przewalski's horses, but mostly Przewalski. It's supposed to be patches of skin with dark pigment that is identical on both sides - as if the horse had a tattoo on each shoulder or neck-shoulder area.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

Is there any actual proof of Frame? They do not look Frame to me, and if it was there when the horses were exported, it ought to still be there.
I thought it was a mutation that actually started in America.....

website: please come and visit... http://www.shadowplayminihorses.co.uk/

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

Do you think it's possible to have the Medicine Hat pattern without frame?

Third Peppermint: That's interesting - are there more pics about Bider markings on this board? Is there any record about it somewhere???

Third Peppermint
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Re: color mystery

That's interesting - are there more pics about Bider markings on this board? Is there any record about it somewhere???

Here's the thread: http://forum.equine-color.info/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1790

There's a journal article and lots of pictures (I hope.)

EDIT: Nope, pictures gone. :(

Danni
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Re: color mystery

Do you think it's possible to have the Medicine Hat pattern without frame?

Definitely!! I don't even think I'd call medicine hat a frame thing?! It's just a maximum expression on a few of the patterns usually isn't it?

rodeoratdogs
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Re: color mystery

Very interesting, I love those old paintings! Definitely see splash in those last ones tjuri posted.

tjuri
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Re: color mystery
Do you think it's possible to have the Medicine Hat pattern without frame?

Definitely!! I don't even think I'd call medicine hat a frame thing?! It's just a maximum expression on a few of the patterns usually isn't it?

I did not say that frame alone causes that pattern, but frame must be involved - as far as I have seen it, one of the parents always carried frame (tested) + splash and very often sabino (tested) was present as well. The offspring with the Medicine Hat pattern was always positive for frame and sabino. You need splash to get the white on the lower part of the body because frame will try to keep color on the legs. I don't think sabino will remove that much color from the legs and belly. The colored shields on the flanks and the chest are left-overs from the frame patterns.
Since there are two Medicine Hats among the paintings, I guess frame must have been present at that time in Spain/Europe.

I refer to these two paintings: Isabella's horse even shows sabino roaning on the ears and on the shield and the dark rim around the eye supposed to be caused by sabino. But sabino and splash can't remove so much color from the body AND leave those shields in place.

Danni
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Re: color mystery

I did not say that frame alone causes that pattern, but frame must be involved - as far as I have seen it, one of the parents always carried frame (tested) + splash and very often sabino (tested) was present as well. The offspring with the Medicine Hat pattern was always positive for frame and sabino. You need splash to get the white on the lower part of the body because frame will try to keep color on the legs. I don't think sabino will remove that much color from the legs and belly. The colored shields on the flanks and the chest are left-overs from the frame patterns.
Since there are two Medicine Hats among the paintings, I guess frame must have been present at that time in Spain/Europe.

The Gypsy Cobs can get medicine hat type markings from max tobiano/splash/sabino, I'm not sure why a horse would have to have frame to get a medicine hat? DW can take a lot of colour off too, and mixed with splash etc.. I'm sure those markings are possible. Those horses don't look obviously frame to me.

tjuri
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Re: color mystery
I did not say that frame alone causes that pattern, but frame must be involved - as far as I have seen it, one of the parents always carried frame (tested) + splash and very often sabino (tested) was present as well. The offspring with the Medicine Hat pattern was always positive for frame and sabino. You need splash to get the white on the lower part of the body because frame will try to keep color on the legs. I don't think sabino will remove that much color from the legs and belly. The colored shields on the flanks and the chest are left-overs from the frame patterns.
Since there are two Medicine Hats among the paintings, I guess frame must have been present at that time in Spain/Europe.

The Gypsy Cobs can get medicine hat type markings from max tobiano/splash/sabino, I'm not sure why a horse would have to have frame to get a medicine hat? DW can take a lot of colour off too, and mixed with splash etc.. I'm sure those markings are possible. Those horses don't look obviously frame to me.

I'd love to see photos of Medicine Hats that tested negative for frame, if you have some to share that would be nice.

Monsterpony
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Re: color mystery

I think what appears to be a medicine hat in the Isabella picture is actually a flower in the horse's browband.

.

Danni
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Re: color mystery

I'd love to see photos of Medicine Hats that tested negative for frame, if you have some to share that would be nice.

I personally don't like the markings with mostly white so haven't saved any pictures but I should be able to find some. No they won't be tested for frame, people tested the Gypsy Cobs for frame heaps at the start, they have all been negative so no-one tests them for frame any more. They are UK based anyway, frame would be almost impossible. If something turned up with very frame markings I might test just to be sure. But at this stage I'm pretty confident to say they don't have frame. Here is a foal from this year, from a big breeder in the UK. Although not specifically medicine hat, the tobi/splash/sabino markings are heading that way and I really don't think it would be that big a stretch to get a proper medicine hat.

IMAGE(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs585.snc3/30842_120884454610283_100000661887955_154532_2026100_n.jpg)

accphotography
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Re: color mystery

I did not say that frame alone causes that pattern, but frame must be involved - as far as I have seen it, one of the parents always carried frame (tested) + splash and very often sabino (tested) was present as well. The offspring with the Medicine Hat pattern was always positive for frame and sabino. You need splash to get the white on the lower part of the body because frame will try to keep color on the legs. I don't think sabino will remove that much color from the legs and belly. The colored shields on the flanks and the chest are left-overs from the frame patterns.

Wow your experience and opinions on this topic couldn't BE any more different than mine. I've seen plenty of medicine hats that couldn't have been frame. Tobiano and splash alone can do it. Add sabino and dominant white and there's no question it can be done.

Frame may try to keep the legs dark, but WAY more often than not, it loses. Not to mention, you're saying all medicine hats have frame and yet you're saying that frame by nature goes against medicine hat rules.

IME frame makes no effort to put shields on. That's tobi. You don't need frame for that.

You didn't mention tobi at all. I would be FAR quicker to say you can't have medicine hat without tobi (and I've even seen that too) than to say you can't have it without frame.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Danni
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Re: color mystery

You didn't mention tobi at all. I would be FAR quicker to say you can't have medicine hat without tobi (and I've even seen that too) than to say you can't have it without frame.

That's more what my thinking on medicine hat's has been!

RiddleMeThis
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Re: color mystery

Semi medicine hat with NEITHER Frame nor Tobi
IMAGE(http://www.cedarrockfarms.com/milly_right_sm.jpg)

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

Danni
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Re: color mystery

If anything, I guess splash would have to be the common theme in the medicine hats for those big white faces

Dogrose
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Re: color mystery

This horse
http://forum.equine-color.info/download/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
seems to havw almost identical markings to the gypsy stallion Coates Travellin' Man on this page (scroll down) http://www.gypsyhorses.co.uk/stud.asp#f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No chance of frame there.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

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