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Coat Colors and Domestication

Several months ago a friend of mine sent me a copy of a published scientific article titled, "Coat Color Variation at the Beginning of Horse Domestication," published April 24, 2009 in [i]Science[/i] magazine. [size=85] [color=#0080FF]Researchers/authors are affiliated with various institutes and universities in Germany, Spain, and USA (University of California Berkeley) ... involving zoologists, anthropologists, and biologists. If anyone requires it, I can type out the list of authors and which institutions or universities with which they are affiliated.[/color][/size] In this article they say there is evidence that horses were domesticated as early as 5,500 to 5,000 BP (before present ... before the year 0). And that coat color variations began to take place quite rapidly from that point in time ... with human selection being credited for that rapid change. Another friend pointed out to us at that time that breeders of fox noticed a rapid change in colors produced by the captive fox. Due to human selection in the breeding process, colors that would likely not have survived in the wild (hence were not seen in wild/free fox) were not uncommon in captive bred foxes. I think she said even parti-colored (think pinto) patterns were seen quite regularly. Using ancient samples (DNA from the remains of ancient horses), the researchers who authored of the above mentioned article were able to determine that the earliest ancient horses were all at least bay (EE AA) ... from around 12,000 BP, if I'm reading it correctly. Bear in mind that they could only test for colors for which there is currently a direct DNA test for that gene/mutation. In other words, they had no dun test available to them, for example, so they could not test for dun. They do state that there is evidence they were all bay dun, but that they couldn't test for dun. It was shortly after they believe horses to have first become domesticated (around 5,000 - 4,000 BP, I guess) that they first note both "A" and "a" present in early Iberian horses. So that's when black coat phenotype became possible ... that's when an "A" mutated to an "a"! Around the 2,000 BP-ish time frame (I'm not reading to get exact dates, just looking at a linear time line and paraphrasing), mutations for Tobiano, Sabino, and Chestnut showed up. And finally in the 1,000 BP time frame, Buckskin and Black Silver were noted. Obviously, for example, if buckskin and chestnut were possible, so was palomino and all other variants of cream dilution. They are simply reporting what the precise color test results were for the ancient DNA samples they had available to them. In other words, the samples they had just didn't happen to include a palomino. BTW, they had 152 samples, from which they were able to successfully color test 89. The others may not have had viable DNA, I guess. Thought some of you might find this interesting.

rabbitsfizz Sat, 06/12/2010 - 08:36

Except we know that Forest Tarpans were Black Dun, and there is evidence to [i]suppose[/i] that Grey also existed, although it was quite possible before the Grey test? and although before the Dun test would not have been before the Black test.......

lillith Tue, 06/15/2010 - 03:02

Didn't they find with the foxes that selecting for tameness resulted in higher proportion of white markings than would be expected just from them not being bred out by natural selection?

Third Peppermint Tue, 06/15/2010 - 10:09

I read that the tame behavior was related to differing pigment cell migrations in the nervous system. Like... to have gotten the tame fox they selected for an animal that genetically had off pigment cells and as they continued the selection, the pigment cell anomalies showed up in the body. The other interesting things they got were floppy ears and curved tails...neither of which horses really have.

Danni Thu, 06/17/2010 - 18:39

Where is their white patterning? I always thought the white face and white legs, like clydes/shires, many of the dogs breeds etc.. was what they might have meant when talking about typical white patterns appearing with domestication?

rabbitsfizz Fri, 06/25/2010 - 07:52

African Wild Dogs are not true Dogs....as far as I am aware they are not Lupus or Canis.
But the theory still holds true, except that in their case and in the case of a number of wild, African animals, the white "spotting" is part of the camouflage.

The Foxes would not survive in the wild with either the tame attitude or the white spotting, so although it is strange that the two seem to be related it is not that strange.
I am pretty sure that what they stumbled on is a "domestication" gene!
Cattle, Sheep, Pigs etc are domestic [i]livestock[/i] and their level of domestication is actually very low. They have been changed physically far more than mentally.
Dogs and Cats, however are completely domesticated, which is why it is so potentially stupid to cross Dogs with Wolves (you get a very big, very powerful animal with no in built fear or respect for humans)
In order to get from Wolves to Dogs , even given the time we have had to do so, it took some sort of mutated genetic that predisposed the animals to being more than merely helpful with a hunt in return for food....Dingoes did that and I really do not suggest anyone try to keep a Dingo in a house.....

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 08:45

Did it mention anything about Grey? So many of your historic tales talk about white horses, now whether or not they are cream, dominate white, or grey I do not know. But I wonder if one of the reasons for so many of the worlds horses being grey is directly related to peoples desire for them in the past. Basically finding that mutation,worshiping it, breeding it for royalty, and so forth.

Has any study actually been done on the relation between behavior and color? I know there are generations of breeder observations, but I wasn't sure if anyone followed up with science. It would be interesting to see if loud white patterned horses mimic the findings in foxes. Some of the most docile horses I've come across are spotted and leopard patterns. Then again how much of that behavior was hand selected for in horses in the first place.

TheRedHayflinger Fri, 06/25/2010 - 09:03

[quote="JNFerrigno"]
Has any study actually been done on the relation between behavior and color? I know there are generations of breeder observations, but I wasn't sure if anyone followed up with science. It would be interesting to see if loud white patterned horses mimic the findings in foxes. Some of the most docile horses I've come across are spotted and leopard patterns. Then again how much of that behavior was hand selected for in horses in the first place.[/quote]

that sounds totally interesting. I will agree with you on most of the docile horses I've known have had some sort of white LP or pinto pattern. Even my big belgian mare with a ton of white I had at one point who reallllllly didn't want to be a riding horse was never mean about showing that to me (she got her wish and was sold to a gentleman who wanted a horse to hitch and drive...she didn't mind that!)

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 09:23

[quote="TheRedHayflinger"]that sounds totally interesting. I will agree with you on most of the docile horses I've known have had some sort of white LP or pinto pattern. Even my big belgian mare with a ton of white I had at one point who reallllllly didn't want to be a riding horse was never mean about showing that to me (she got her wish and was sold to a gentleman who wanted a horse to hitch and drive...she didn't mind that!)[/quote]
A lot of what I heard was just word of mouth old cracker lore. But if my humanities class taught me anything, it's that behind every fable there's a sprinkle of truth.

Jenks Fri, 06/25/2010 - 09:36

MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....

TheRedHayflinger Fri, 06/25/2010 - 09:40

[quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]

would love to hear more on this. :D

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 09:50

[quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]
Oh a similar note about color linkage, wasn't there a study done comparing the amounts of white on a horse and their base color? Or was that more of the breeder lore? Some times I get the two mixed up, because lets face it breeders are at the front of the genetic army, and they are the ones that come up with these theories first, and then like 10 years down the road some one decides to look into it.

Jenks Fri, 06/25/2010 - 09:55

[quote="TheRedHayflinger"][quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]

would love to hear more on this. :D[/quote]

I can't remember what we were discussing - was it the whorl theory? The more whorls, the more spirited? But she was just saying that everything *could* be linked - physical traits with disposition. After all, white (when LWO) and an incomplete intestinal tract (physical trait) are together.....so. I think she had a better example....

TheRedHayflinger Fri, 06/25/2010 - 10:06

[quote="Jenks"][quote="TheRedHayflinger"][quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]

would love to hear more on this. :D[/quote]

I can't remember what we were discussing - was it the whorl theory? The more whorls, the more spirited? But she was just saying that everything *could* be linked - physical traits with disposition. After all, white (when LWO) and an incomplete intestinal tract (physical trait) are together.....so. I think she had a better example....[/quote]

My bendy little pinto pony has 8 or 9 whorls on her head...LOL

Jenks Fri, 06/25/2010 - 10:41

Really? Is that a world record? LOL My ahem, *spirited* arabian mare has a double forehead whorl that go in opposite directions and it was supposed to mean extreme spirit...and that is true in her case, then she's got another - gosh now I can't remember, but also on her forehead.

TheRedHayflinger Fri, 06/25/2010 - 10:49

my haflinger has swirls on her cheeks...don't know what that means. I'll try to go out and get a picture soon. What am I saying...they are 30 yards from my back door...I'll go see if she is in a good mood then..haha. Gypsy's multitude of head swirls are hard to get a pic of, but I'll try. My vet even helped me count them one day..LOL

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 11:15

[quote="Jenks"]Really? Is that a world record? LOL My ahem, *spirited* arabian mare has a double forehead whorl that go in opposite directions and it was supposed to mean extreme spirit...and that is true in her case, then she's got another - gosh now I can't remember, but also on her forehead.[/quote]
She secretly sprouts horns at night when you are sleeping.

Dogrose Fri, 06/25/2010 - 11:28

I did my BSc dissertation on a study I did on the connection between tractability and temperament, and the chestnut colour in horses. The only significant difference I found was that chestnut horses were more difficult to clip (in their owner's opinion), there was no significant difference in other things (like loading, transporting, saddling, grooming, herd dominance etc.) between black based and chestnut based colours.
I did only get 54% final mark for it though so the whole thing is probably pretty much rubbish :-/

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 11:32

[quote="Dogrose"]I did my BSc dissertation on a study I did on the connection between tractability and temperament, and the chestnut colour in horses. The only significant difference I found was that chestnut horses were more difficult to clip (in their owner's opinion), there was no significant difference in other things (like loading, transporting, saddling, grooming, herd dominance etc.) between black based and chestnut based colours.
I did only get 54% final mark for it though so the whole thing is probably pretty much rubbish :-/[/quote]
See, thats what you get for trying something new. At least you tried!

Jenks Fri, 06/25/2010 - 11:53

[quote="JNFerrigno"][quote="Jenks"]Really? Is that a world record? LOL My ahem, *spirited* arabian mare has a double forehead whorl that go in opposite directions and it was supposed to mean extreme spirit...and that is true in her case, then she's got another - gosh now I can't remember, but also on her forehead.[/quote]
She secretly sprouts horns at night when you are sleeping.[/quote]

Now we're talking! LOL She is super sweet like an angel (dripping cheese here, yes) and then she'll suddenly bolt. I know she's got them in there.....she can't hide em all the time! I think actually that she's super sensitive, and super smart, just not the right horse for everyone.

Monsterpony Fri, 06/25/2010 - 15:11

[quote="TheRedHayflinger"][quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]

would love to hear more on this. :D[/quote]

For me, I just try to keep an open mind. They still haven't figured out why silver horses have MCOA (especially those that are red-based so don't express their silver), but I have seen it in every single silver (or carrier) horse I have examined has evidence of it. The folklore is out there for a reason. Some of it has been proven bunk (white hooves are weaker than black), but who can really say for everything. Outside of the horse world, a documentary was filmed on identical twins that were separated at birth, but reunited later in life. Those twins were found to be [i]much[/i] more alike than those raised together, down to the way they stand, how they gesture, how they speak, what they like to do, etc. It seemed that identical twins worked to [i]not[/i] be so similar to each other so they could be seen as an individual. It really is a fight between genetics and environment.

rabbitsfizz Fri, 06/25/2010 - 15:59

Grey seems to be the one unproven "colour" in horses that seems the most likely to have actually happened.
I can ignore the Appy claims (although it would be absolutely great if the rather "out there" theory that they were indigenous were to be true, even if it were there is so little original Appy blood in modern Appies as to make it negligible) and I very much doubt that parti colours existed, as there just isn't anything to suggest that they did (weird the way every "mongrel" reverts to parti colours, though) so Black and Bay + Dun seem to be the most likely bases, and, in either case, there is no reason why a Grey modifier should cause the same "trouble" as, for example, Cream. A Cream foal is born sticking out like a sore thumb, a Grey foal is born (usually) the colour of it's parents and then the Grey creeps up on you.
By the time you realise Charley is a weird colour he's been around so long no one can be bothered to get upset by him.
So, I can see Grey creeping in and being accepted.
Even if there is no proof for it....

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 17:53

[quote="Monsterpony"]Those twins were found to be [i]much[/i] more alike than those raised together, down to the way they stand, how they gesture, how they speak, what they like to do, etc. It seemed that identical twins worked to [i]not[/i] be so similar to each other so they could be seen as an individual. It really is a fight between genetics and environment.[/quote]
I think I've seen the same documentary, or a similar one, because I think it explored a couple different sets of twins. But it is interesting.

rabbitsfizz: I think you just went way over my head. Whats this now with the appy thing? And what proof would you want of grey? Are we talking like, testing of old samples, cave drawings, or other historic evidence?

On the other note, sorry for being slow LOL it just clicked. Can anyone pin point the earliest known 'parti-colored' horse? If domestication in fox and other animals brought out colors that would stand out more in the wild, I wonder when horses started to mutate following that trend?

Jenks Fri, 06/25/2010 - 20:39

I believe cave drawings of multi colored - not just appaloosas - but perhaps Tobi's too (paw printed) date back to the paleolithic period? That is theory though. I don't know officially...

accphotography Fri, 06/25/2010 - 21:52

Haha if that were true the wildest horses would be bay duns and all the ones I've known were quiet as lambs (though a couple were kinda nasty, they were still quiet).