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Can you guess why she should not be bred?

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Jenks
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

Yes I've heard that too.

My question is, what is "slight"? If that's good for reining? I know that Ser is not "slight", but Khaos *is* - I think - amongst other things....

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

I have someone helping me look for that article. When I googled "sickle hocks", just too many hits and not the right ones (in the first two pages or so of hits I went thru'). This article (from memory) explains exactly what the benefits of breeding for slight sickle hocks, and how breeding straight could be causing health problems...that's why I really want to pull it up here for discussion. The concept was a complete 180 from what I've always believed/been taught.

Diane

Jenks
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

That would be interesting!

Maigray
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

Jenks,

I just wandered on over here - did you ever get my critique on Ser? It was so long ago, I can't remember anymore. I did one, I know because I save mine and I still have it. But did I ever actually send it to you? It must have been years ago...

Jenks
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

No, you were trying to make me think for myself and I never answered one of your questions - I think.... And that's what got me started on this whole thing with trying to learn it myself. I'd love to see it if you still have it!

That was at the old EC site.

Sara
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

okay. This is my sickle hocked mare. She is leaning forward to get a treat in this photo which throws off the angles a little but you can definitely see it.

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/jmpnghorse/Ginny/DSCN1083.jpg)

You can see it as a foal as well (although I swear this is not her neck. Where on earth did that come from??!?)

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/jmpnghorse/Ginny/GinnyOneMonth.jpg)

She has a huge overstride at the walk, it's beautiful really, and desirable in dressage. I have to laugh about the overstride and the comment about Tennessee Walkers because I have read in numerous places that Tennessee Walkers are the only horses who can do that. Heh. Have they never watched a dressage competition?

Here is how she trots. I have never seen her interfere although you can see she comes very close. She's sensitive so she has probably just learned exactly how far she can step under herself and goes no further.

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/jmpnghorse/Ginny/Ginnytrotsbig092207.jpg)

She's ridden 8-10 times a week and shows several times a year over fences up to 3' (she's a large pony). So... is there something in her conformation allowing for this or does she just have that "thing inside"?

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Jenks
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

What's interesting about her is that she doesn't look over angled like a sickle hocked horse....It just looks like her gaskin is a little long. Know what I mean? Is that what makes it slight?

Sara
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

Ah, I see that. So what is the technical definition of sickle hocks? I guess I figured if the line from fetlock to hock ended up behind the rump, that was sickle hocks/camped out.

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Jenks
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

I thought it was over angulation, and the opposite is post legged, where the angles are all too open or straight. Hmm. Will pull references when I get home!

Sara
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

If it's just over angulation, then not all camped out horses are sickle hocked... Okay, I'm wrapping my brain around this. Is she more camped out than sickle hocked then?

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accphotography
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

I've always been told that if the horse's legs are behind the plumb line when the *canons are perpendicular to the ground* then they are sickle hocked. If they are in front of the line when the canon are perpendicular, then they are post legged. That would mean that all sickle hocked horses are camped out and vice versa, which I why I have *never* used the term camped out.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Jenks
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

Ha about the young neck! I have that same thing going on with Cyn's neck. It looked SO upright when he was little and so NOT upright now!

Due to the angle of the shot, I'm not sure it's a great one to decide on, but I'm going to see what I can find in the books about it. There are multiple sections on the hind limbs, but the first one in Volume I, indeed shows the plumb line and states that it is sickle hocked if: when the rear cannon is perpendicular to the ground, it falls behind the plumb line. However, it also states that a post legged horse has legs in front of the line, more under rather than straight, and....Lacy's line up, but I KNOW she has open, posty hind leg angulation. SO. How can it be both post legged in one definition and not the other? Let me read on or let someone who doesn't have to refer or re-read books to explain...

accphotography
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

I think the musculature along the tibia can make a horse look posty even if they are not structurally. Some of the jumpers or distance running horses I have seen LOOK posty, but they could never hold up for what they do if they truly were. Also some of the really stocky horses can look a bit "camped under" (and thus sickle in some people's description) because they have a different curvature of the muscle along the tibia.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

I've always been told that if the horse's legs are behind the plumb line when the *canons are perpendicular to the ground* then they are sickle hocked. If they are in front of the line when the canon are perpendicular, then they are post legged. That would mean that all sickle hocked horses are camped out and vice versa, which I why I have *never* used the term camped out.

Ahha!! I've just had an epiphany! I'm not sure how it came about, but somehow the term "post-legged", for me, has come to mean something different than what ACC states above, which was what I was originally taught, many, many, waaay to MANY moons ago. The post-leggedness image I've been holding in my brain when we've discussed this is rarely seen outside of the stockbreed halter horse world....

Diane

accphotography
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying Diane?

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

Okay....maybe I'm not having an epiphany...When I first read your post, I envisaged a photo of of the back end of a horse, "front on" so to speak, not from the side, with the plumb lines dropping to the ground, with the cannons being either outside (post) or inside (sickle) the plumb line.

When I think "post-legged", these days, I picture a photo of the front or back leg, standing next to a fence post, and a spirit level would be hard put to tell the difference between the two, no matter where it was placed on the horse. That was my epiphany--that I was using the term "post-legged" in the wrong fashion, and that I have no clue how that came about...

Now, I'm wondering if I need more caffeine! :laugh1

Diane

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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

:rofl

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

You're not supposed to laugh, you're supposed to confirm whether or not I've had an epiphany!! :hammer :angel :laugh1

Diane with :coffee in hand (well, tea, not coffee)

Jenks
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

Snort!

accphotography
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

I'm not sure I can because I think *I'm* still lost. :laugh1 Maybe *I'm* the one that needs the :coffee . :laugh1

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

All right, where's MP? Or a nurse? I think we need a couple of caffeine IV drips set up!! :bounce :bounce :bounce :laugh1 :laugh1 :laugh1

Diane

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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

Sorry, I don't do humans...who would want to work with those whiny creatures? (typed while massaging my sore arms from wrestling a needle shy mare while trying to do an IV catheter).

.

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

At least I won't need to be wrestled with (as much as I dislike needles!). :laugh1

Diane

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Re: Can you guess why she should not be bred?

MY ANGLO-ARAB HAS THOSE SPOTS! only on her belly, but she got them while in foal, so i thought they were either stretch marks or Melanomas....she had no skin infection, just little bald spots. odd....i will get a pic of mine next time i see her....i miss her....

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