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Brown and Bay again

Danni July 30, 2010 February 22, 2011

Forums

Well I've been thinking about brown lately, seeing as what I thought was dark bay seems more often than not be a brown :? I thought the dark legs as foals was interesting too. So is this a fairly good way of telling a brown from a dark bay? Or do not all browns have dark legs as foals, and occasionaly bay foals can have them too?? Anyway well I wondered if I should start testing some of my ponies. This little mare for instance I assumed was a dark bay, well I still think she is really. But could she be brown?? Is it worth testing her to see if she's brown? I was hoping she might give me a more 'red' clearer bay foal, but if she's brown I guess she never will LOL! She had normal pale legs as a foal. She's obviously pangare too which might have effected the pale legs as a foal? These first two pics are last winter, still quite immature, and the next ones are this winter I took last week. She's more red now as you can see, but her undercoat is still dark. [img]http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/548/tawnie2yo2.jpg[/img] [img]http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2039/tawnie2yo.jpg[/img] [img]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4826051951_b17743a669_z.jpg[/img] [img]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4097/4826658900_a46ac80b16.jpg[/img] [img]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4099/4826661654_f949e4a3e9.jpg[/img] So she 'looks' dark bay to me, but does she have any brown indicators?? I really don't get what a brown is any more :oops:

accphotography Fri, 07/30/2010 - 01:48

She did have dark rings around her eyes and wither patches as a foal and those indicate brown sometimes (though usually they're more obvious than hers were). Do you have any shots of her not in her winter coat?

Krickette Fri, 07/30/2010 - 15:16

So wait, I'm confused...why do yall say brown? The only thing odd I see is how light her muzzle is, but I've seen that before and not thought anything of it. One of my Arabs had a light muzzle, and I just thought he reminded me of a donkey (in looks and demeanor)

thorwood Sat, 07/31/2010 - 03:09

Oh, I am sooooo with Danni here. I thought I knew the difference between bay & brown, but now I haven't a clue.
Are we saying seal is brown???? I call seal a near black horse with brown/tan around the muzzle/flanks.

How do we tell a dark bay from a light brown????
:BH

Krickette Sat, 07/31/2010 - 14:37

[quote="thorwood"]Oh, I am sooooo with Danni here. I thought I knew the difference between bay & brown, but now I haven't a clue.
Are we saying seal is brown???? I call seal a near black horse with brown/tan around the muzzle/flanks.

How do we tell a dark bay from a light brown????
:BH[/quote]
ditto!

accphotography Sun, 08/01/2010 - 19:46

[quote="thorwood"]
[b]Are we saying seal is brown???? I call seal a near black horse with brown/tan around the muzzle/flanks.[/b]

[i]How do we tell a dark bay from a light brown???? [/i]
:BH[/quote]

[b]Yes.[/b]

[i]THAT is where the guesswork comes in and why I'd love to see more of these "borderline" horses tested.[/i]

Danni Sun, 08/01/2010 - 20:15

Ok I promise I'll test mine, I'll do the buckskin shettie mare too as I think she's also borderline case. She probably even more likey to be a brown as she has the dark eye goggles. Both are fairly typical for most of the bay (or bay base) shetlands I see, neither a obvious clean red bay, or the obvious seal brown. So I'm curious myself. Fingers crossed they are bay not brown!!

thorwood Sun, 08/01/2010 - 20:34

Tested for what???
I thought all seal horses tested positive for agouti???
I thought the test for brown was not exactly universally accepted!!!

Danni's pony doesn't look seal to me, you can see it's points. It looks like a dark bay, lol, whatever that may be.
It seems there isn't even any agreement on what the phenotype of dark bay, brown, seal actually is.
LOL, any wonder I am confused.
Mind you, not that I really care, as seal/bay/brown are not really colours I select for, I don't care which one I get.

None of my seals ever look bay, they look like black horses with with a bit of tan around the edges.

So what do you call this filly????

Baby photo, just born.
[attachment=2]candy22.jpg[/attachment]

Yearling fluff
[attachment=1]DSC_4251.JPG[/attachment]

Summer coat
[attachment=0]DSC_7036.jpg[/attachment]

Danni Sun, 08/01/2010 - 20:41

Well I think she looks more brown than my pony? I'd call her a brown??

I'd only like my pony to test as a bay rather than brown as I love the colour of a good red bay with their black points. There isn't too many of them in the shettie world, and it would be cool if I bred one. But if she's brown I know I won't get it!! I didn't breed her for that, I like her as a pony, I would just be nice to get a red bay one day. If that makes sense!!

accphotography Sun, 08/01/2010 - 20:50

Well and imagine the surprise of some people to find out the horses they were calling black or liver chestnut or what have you were actually palomino. We just simply can't know the full range of expression until enough borderline cases have been tested.

thorwood Sun, 08/01/2010 - 21:27

Yes, Danni, I agree, I would call mine brown to look at, but not seal!!! Hmm, I think she is registered as bay/brown.

Um ACC, not sure what you mean.
brown, bay, seal, dark bay, whatever you like to call them are all going to test positive for agouti, & are really all variations of bay as far as we know, where as the colours you mention
involve another gene.

Can someone explain in plain english what the difference between bay & brown is???

accphotography Sun, 08/01/2010 - 22:49

You completely missed my point. The colors I mentioned WERE all the same gene, people just didn't know that until the test came out. They were called black, or liver chestnut because that's exactly how they looked... but they test palomino. People had to broaden their minds as to what a palomino could look like.

No, they don't test positive for agouti per se. They test to have one or no copies of recessive agouti. Aka we don't really have a test for agouti at all. There is no agouti mutation identified. I doubt much research has been done as people have been ok to just be able to say "we know it's not black so it's some type of agouti", but that doesn't necessarily make it bay. This doctor has found an agouti mutation that causes a brown to seal phenotype.

The difference is the genotype (and of course a resulting phenotype, which people have become completely numb to IMO).

thorwood Sun, 08/01/2010 - 23:17

Yes, I hear what you are saying, but now we have tests for all those that you mention, so we can say a horse is chestnut or it is black or it is palomino.
There is no such certainty or agreement with bay/brown/seal. We can't even agree on this forum what they look like.

So we have a test for A or a, though you say we don't even have an agouti mutation identified.
Sorry, but isn't it a bit contradictory to say someone has found an agouti mutation that causes seal/brown when you just said there is no agouti mutation identified.

Like I said, :BH

accphotography Sun, 08/01/2010 - 23:20

[quote="thorwood"]Yes, I hear what you are saying, but now we have tests for all those that you mention, so we can say a horse is chestnut or it is black or it is palomino.
There is no such certainty or agreement with bay/brown/seal. We can't even agree on this forum what they look like.

So we have a test for A or a, though you say we don't even have an agouti mutation identified.
Sorry, but isn't it a bit contradictory to say someone has found an agouti mutation that causes seal/brown when you just said there is no agouti mutation identified.

Like I said, :BH[/quote]

Yes. My point is what people didn't know ____ was palomino before the test just like some people say _____ horse is bay... until it's tested for brown. :smile:

When I said there was no agouti mutation identified yet I was excluding Dr. Michal's test as that was the standing before that test came out. I was jut trying to make the point that just because a horse tests 'A_' somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it's really bay, it solely means it's not black.

ThornandThistle Sun, 08/01/2010 - 23:32

So what about my two? My mare and my stallion...mare is registered Liver chestnut, stallion registered bay...but both seem off to me.

ThornandThistle Mon, 08/02/2010 - 12:41

yeah, but mare about 2 weeks prior to photo and stallion almost a month...i clip him once a year and he darkens up and his gold areas get golder as it gets longer.

ThornandThistle Tue, 08/03/2010 - 01:01

but they were grown out by then, that's what i was saying. both have plenty of time to grow out, cuz it was like Feb. so they grew fast, Feb-june i have to clip twice a month when showing...

rabbitsfizz Wed, 08/18/2010 - 03:26

They both look Bay to me.
What is all this about Agouti having no test?
What is all the aa, AA, Aa, nonsense then, that we see as "tested for Agouti??
Are the labs just charging us for nothing?????

accphotography Wed, 08/18/2010 - 14:21

It's because there is no test (outside of Pet DNA's for 'At') for a DOMINANT agouti. The only thing we are "paying for" is the lab to tell us how many copies of the RECESSIVE ('a') agouti gene are present. The mutation for bay (presumably 'A') has not been found.

thorwood Mon, 08/23/2010 - 16:53

ACC, have just read the article in the Paint Journal which has plenty of quotes from Michael Prochazka, most of the horses pictured are not the typical seal ie black with tan muzzle/flanks, they are to the eye brown, & not even close to looking black.

He says that one of the main reasons for testing for At, is that brown is often mistakenly identified as liver chestnut or smoky black.
Hmmm, I have bred lots of foals, can't say I have ever mistaken a brown foal for a chestnut or a smoky black, not even close.
The article talks about how amazing it is to know a horse is brown, lol, when the horses in the photos are very obviously brown. Like hello, sorry, I could tell that without spending $40 on a test. Though of course, there are horses where it is hard to determine whether they are bay or brown.

It also says that brown horses are usually born with dark legs while bay horses are born with light legs. Can't say I have found that either.
All of my brown foals have looked bay at birth, though it is hard to explain, they are a richer shade than a typical bay foal, but that is hardly scientific, just my observation.

I am not doubting his research, would just like to see some information on his site about what his research found.
I would like to see pictures of the horses he tested & what their results were.

thorwood Mon, 08/23/2010 - 19:34

Thank you, I would love to see the photos, link doesn't work for me though.
Any other way I can see them??

Cheers
Amanda