Due to decreasing use over the years, I have decided to disable the forum functionality of the site.

Forums will still be available to view but new posts are no longer allowed.

Brown??

Danni October 24, 2011 October 24, 2011

Forums

Ok brown is confusing me again! I had a filly born yesterday, some of you might have seen her on FB. She looks brown, I think. Her dam is a clear buckskin, sire Friesian black. The dam's dam was also clear buckskin and her sire brown looking. But she had a black foal a couple of years ago so she can't be AA. Thus the only A she has isn't At.. If that makes sense. So where did the brown come from?? Or is she actually a sooty bay, with sooty coming through the black? http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314495_2518164203754_154… http://www.gypsyhorsesaustralia.com/misc/dustyorlandofilly2.jpg

Third Peppermint Mon, 10/24/2011 - 19:12

I wonder if the dam is just a really light brown buckskin? I'd be interested in a test just to satisfy my curiosity.

Danni Mon, 10/24/2011 - 23:42

Did you see what I asked though admin, the mare has to be brown based too if the filly is? (on current beliefs anyway) And she really doesn't look it.

If like what you said Peppermint, the mare is a really pale brown, then I really don't see the relevence to brown in anything?? I mean if both bays and brown cover the same phenotype then there is no such thing as brown?

Third Peppermint Tue, 10/25/2011 - 07:06

I do see a little shading on the neck and wither area of the buckskin dam - perhaps she's like the appaloosa horses that only have mottling and striped hooves? She's still got the gene, but it doesn't show because of some other factors - just because the appy doesn't have spots doesn't mean it isn't appy. Perhaps mom-horse just has another gene that makes her super pale. Do you happen to have any pics of her black foal?

Threnody Tue, 10/25/2011 - 08:58

It is possible that the black foal was really a very dark brown.

This mare was tested by the owners to be EE Ata. She is brown, but is so dark she can easily be mistaken for black.
http://www.allanglos.net/horses/thoroug…

Brown also does have relevance to genetics because it has been found to be a separate gene from common bay. The expression of brown can have crossover with common bay.

Daylene Alford Tue, 10/25/2011 - 09:01

[quote]Did you see what I asked though admin[/quote] No, I completely missed the point :oops:

[quote]But she had a black foal a couple of years ago so she can't be AA.[/quote]

I can make a case for the mare being brown. She has that darker coloration along the top of the neck and her face and very high dark leg black. I would actually make a case for her being A[sup]t[/sup]A[sup]t[/sup] just based on her coloration.

Are you sure the foal she had a few years ago was black and not very dark brown like Rusti's colt or Morgans girl?

Danni Tue, 10/25/2011 - 16:21

Her previous colt is definitely black as far as I can tell? He's never had red in his muzzle. Here's some newborn and couple day old pictures, and now as a 2yo that I've taken in the last month. I've certainly never thought he was brown!

Danni Tue, 10/25/2011 - 16:44

Here's the mares sire and dam, plus her as a foal. She's always been a very 'clear' golden buckskin, like her dam, even more so if that's possible, no smutting at all in all the years I've had her. I really find it hard to think of her as a brown buckskin..

I can of course test mare and foal for At I guess, might have to now! But it won't be this month. I'll try and remember to grab hairs before they go away to stud again though. So the only possible answer really is, that either that they are both At or they both aren't?!

Dusty as a newborn pictures are pretty hard to see properly as they weren't very good pictures, but she was a pretty pale colour

Threnody Tue, 10/25/2011 - 17:10

This is just a guess, but I'm starting to think the dam might be brown dun. It could explain her color lightness and her throwing a brown foal and a black foal.

Here are some brown duns with very subdued dun factor.
http://www.duncentralstation.com/BrownB…
http://www.duncentralstation.com/BrownB…
http://www.duncentralstation.com/BrownB…

After seeing her parents I'm unsure again. But it is still possible for her to be AtAt and her foal to be really dark heterozygous brown especially since the mare from all anglos is brown and looks so dark.

I'm looking forward to the gene test!

P.S. I spent a lot of time staring at your pretty Flikr pics. :grin:

Danni Tue, 10/25/2011 - 17:58

I don't think she could be dun, doesn't really look it in person, nor does her parentage suggest it

[quote=Threnody]P.S. I spent a lot of time staring at your pretty Flikr pics. :grin:[/quote]

LOL, thank you, I take a lot!! :grin:

Danni Tue, 10/25/2011 - 20:03

Thank you! I'm not questioning the foal looks brown though, I'm just wondering how on earth I got a brown looking foal! I wouldn't have expected one from her dam. Do you reckon the dam looks brown buckskin dakotakdq?

From what everyone is saying they think it's much more likely the mare is brown, than the foal isn't. Which I have trouble seeing, re the mare that is. She does get some nice dapples in summer usually, but they are usually a darker bucky colour rather than smutty, as are the darker area's near the wither, more darker buckskin colour rather than sooty areas. So why can't a brown looking foal be bay, if a bay (buckskin) looking mare can be brown (buckskin)?

Or of course the black colt isn't black, which I also have trouble seeing *sigh*.

Daylene Alford Tue, 10/25/2011 - 22:12

[quote]So the only possible answer really is, that either that they are both At or they both aren't?![/quote]

That is about the size of it. Unless there is something screwy with our currently understanding of At (which would mean there is something screwy with the At test).

It would be interesting to send in the hair without giving any background info and see how it comes back.

Monsterpony Wed, 10/26/2011 - 14:24

[quote=Threnody]
After seeing her parents I'm unsure again. But it is still possible for her to be AtAt and her foal to be really dark heterozygous brown especially since the mare from all anglos is brown and looks so dark.[/quote] The mare can't be AtAt because she had a black foal.

RiddleMeThis Wed, 10/26/2011 - 15:16

[quote=Monsterpony][quote=Threnody]
After seeing her parents I'm unsure again. But it is still possible for her to be AtAt and her foal to be really dark heterozygous brown especially since the mare from all anglos is brown and looks so dark.[/quote] The mare can't be AtAt because she had a black foal.[/quote]
Im not Threnody, but I believe what she is saying is the black foal is actually a really dark brown and not black. So the mare COULD be AtAt as she wouldn't have had a black foal.

Danni Wed, 10/26/2011 - 19:28

If the colt is brown, I would still then assume the mare is AAt?? Why AtAt, she can't be can she with her dam being a normal bay buckskin as well? Or are you saying they are all brown buckskins?

RiddleMeThis Wed, 10/26/2011 - 21:11

[quote=Danni]If the colt is brown, I would still then assume the mare is AAt?? Why AtAt, she can't be can she with her dam being a normal bay buckskin as well? Or are you saying they are all brown buckskins?[/quote]
She could be AAt as well. Unless her dam is heterozygous agouti, her dam could be AAt and then she could be AtAt.

I would assume Therenody thought AtAt because AtAts are usually lighter than their Ata counter parts. Ata wouldn't make a lot of sense with how close to bay she is, AtAt would make more sense.

RiddleMeThis Wed, 10/26/2011 - 21:11

[quote=Danni]If the colt is brown, I would still then assume the mare is AAt?? Why AtAt, she can't be can she with her dam being a normal bay buckskin as well? Or are you saying they are all brown buckskins?[/quote]
She could be AAt as well. Unless her dam is heterozygous agouti, her dam could be AAt and then she could be AtAt.

I would assume Therenody thought AtAt because AtAts are usually lighter than their Ata counter parts. Ata wouldn't make a lot of sense with how close to bay she is, AtAt would make more sense.

Danni Wed, 10/26/2011 - 23:03

The dam's dam... That's getting confusing LOL! Anyway she's supposed to be sired by a black and out of a palomino, but that was just what I was told, I actually don't know anything about her parents.

Filly looks a bit more red in the sunlight now, so maybe she won't be a really dark brown like I first thought