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Blue Eyes and Where they Come From

Alright so in relation to previous discussion, I've had to reconsider blue eyes. I understand that a sign of splash is blue eyes. And that white markings on the head are not random like pulling a number out of a hat. How those white markings interact is unclear to me though. I guess the theory of excessive white markings on the head being a cause for some blue eye(s) has been dismissed? The reason I ask is I had a blue eyed dalmatian growing up, and I always thought the blue eyes were caused by the dispersal of pigment (in embryo development?). Even tho she had black rings around her eyes, I thought that blue eyes were attributed to that. The same way deafness is a result of no pigment in the ears (or that's how I understood it). You ever have those moments where you're talking to yourself and basically going in circles? This is one of those, and I'll apologize if I loose any one right now, unfortunately I type the same way I talk, and being a Gemini I've been told I ramble and should get to the point more quickly LOL. [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/Pets/katieblueeyes2.j…] Now all I know about dog genetics is what ever is out there on breeder sites, and I don't think any of that has been updated since the 80's. Often I like to compare patterns in one species to patterns in another. However in the case of dalmatians they don't compare to leopards. Instead it's some kind of spotting gene, which also can present LWS (so I've heard). So then now thinking it all over again, her blue eyes most likely came from the fact she sports a white pattern and has nothing to do with pigment placement on the head? If I look at other breeds with white patterns (Si, for Irish Spotting?) I see that blue eyes are a common trait. Even in my friends beagle with her one blue eye, she's got white markings that would resemble a splashed horse. So then, are all blue eyes the result of splash? Or is it one of those things where all splash horses will have blue eyes, but not all blue eyes mean the horse is splash LOL.

RiddleMeThis Fri, 06/25/2010 - 20:13

Blue eyes in horses can come from a few things. Double dilutes have blue eyes. Champagnes are born with bright blue eyes that fade. Cream and silver can create a blueish tint, but the blue eyes you are talking about either come from splash or frame.

So if a horse has blue eyes, and isnt dilute, and tested negative for frame you can be fairly confident that horse is splash white. Not all splashes have blue eyes, and not all blue eyes are splash.

Monsterpony Fri, 06/25/2010 - 20:18

Blue eyes appear to be related to splash or frame. The KIT genes (sabino, DW, tobiano, roan) leave the eyes dark even when they take the surrounding areas. From what I have seen in phenotypes and while researching deafness, KIT alleles actually seem protective of the inner ear as well (I haven't found a horse with an obvious KIT allele present that was deaf). Splash is most often implicated in the blue eyes. Definitely not all splash horses have blue eyes, though. There is a group researching splash currently and have determined it is not in the KIT locus, but I am not sure if they have actually localized it much more than that.

JNFerrigno Fri, 06/25/2010 - 20:35

Ah yes sorry, just left out the cream because it was a given LOL.

So frame is connected with blue eyes as well? Interesting. Years ago I found some stallions that tested positive for LWS who I thought expressed clear signs of Splashed white. So is it that they were masking frame, or can splash be lethal as well? Guess that ties into the old debate about homo-lethal, homo, and het splashes. Wonder how close they are to a test so we can get some definitive answers.

Songcatcher Fri, 06/25/2010 - 21:51

[quote="JNFerrigno"] Wonder how close they are to a test so we can get some definitive answers.[/quote]
Ahh... that is the sixty four thousand dollar question. We have all been waiting anxiously, hoping it will come soon. :ympray:

accphotography Fri, 06/25/2010 - 22:06

[quote="JNFerrigno"]
So frame is connected with blue eyes as well? Interesting. Years ago I found some stallions that tested positive for LWS who I thought expressed clear signs of Splashed white. So is it that they were masking frame, or can splash be lethal as well? Guess that ties into the old debate about homo-lethal, homo, and het splashes. Wonder how close they are to a test so we can get some definitive answers.[/quote]

I have always believed and been told that frame can/does cause blue eyes. HOWEVER, they truly can not prove that IMO. Until there is a test for splash who is to say those frames with blue eyes don't also have minimal splash? Don't get me wrong, I do think frame probably does cause blue eyes, just saying we can't be certain just yet.

A recent study showed evidence that frame could also cause deafness, however a good many of us believe these horses were also expressing splash and it was not spotted by the researchers somehow (hidden in loud frame maybe).

Splash isn't lethal. If they tested positive for LWO they WERE LWO. It's just likely that they were also splash and the splash was masking the LWO pattern.

There is some evidence to say that frame causes blue eyes though IMO. Frame affects the internal organs when homozygous so we know it's capable of screwing with things inside. Splash we know can screw up things inside too as it can cause deafness. So these two genes have proven they can do things like cause blue eyes (an internal mechanism IMO). However, dominant white, sabino, tobiano, etc. have NOT shown that they can affect ANYTHING inside. Like MP said, the KIT genes seem to not mess things up inside quite as bad (albeit it is theorized that a homozygous dominant white would not be viable so that messes with that theory a bit). They are fairly sure splash is not on KIT and they know frame isn't.

[quote="Songcatcher"]Ahh... that is the sixty four thousand dollar question. We have all been waiting anxiously, hoping it will come soon. :ympray:[/quote]

I am betting it is close. :mrgreen: My second favorite researcher in the world (and possibly the most dogged determined person I've ever met... she always gets her man) is on the case!! She is ALL over it too. Every time I turn around I see a loud splash and here "oh it's being used in the splash study". YAY!!! If anyone can find it she can... and I bet it doesn't take her long. :mrgreen:

Danni Sat, 06/26/2010 - 04:47

[quote="accphotography"]I have always believed and been told that frame can/does cause blue eyes. HOWEVER, they truly can not prove that IMO. Until there is a test for splash who is to say those frames with blue eyes don't also have minimal splash? Don't get me wrong, I do think frame probably does cause blue eyes, just saying we can't be certain just yet.

A recent study showed evidence that frame could also cause deafness, however a good many of us believe these horses were also expressing splash and it was not spotted by the researchers somehow (hidden in loud frame maybe).
[/quote]

Yeh I'm not convinced frame causes blue eyes! :-D

I just think of splash being able to cause lack of pigment in 'internal' type areas, as well as the obvious outer loss of pigment. And just because it can do that of course doesn't mean that it always will. I sometimes wonder if when they find the splash gene if what effects the blue eyes and inner ear isn't splash at all, but an often linked along gene instead :lol:

TheRedHayflinger Sat, 06/26/2010 - 08:51

my old belgian mare...wish I still had her around (or even knew where she was) to test her if a splash test ever came out. She didn't look splash to my eyes (but could have carried it) and had a blue eye. She looked more like some of these DW's that people post. I always just called her sabino (it's been about 8 years since I owned her)

Heather Sat, 06/26/2010 - 11:49

one could argue that in every breed of animals when you see blue eyes you will also find the ocassional deaf animal too, it would then seem reasonable to link the 2 together as the sole cause IMO just as odd observation lol dalmatians ( blue eyes , deafness can be found), ( JRTs (blue eyes , deafness can be found), aussies , horses, cats.... so on...i think it could be reasonable to think that blue eyes is a splash triat , but who knows...might never knwo in ur lifetime.

JNFerrigno Sat, 06/26/2010 - 19:32

[quote="Heather"]one could argue that in every breed of animals when you see blue eyes you will also find the ocassional deaf animal too, it would then seem reasonable to link the 2 together as the sole cause IMO just as odd observation lol dalmatians ( blue eyes , deafness can be found), ( JRTs (blue eyes , deafness can be found), aussies , horses, cats.... so on...i think it could be reasonable to think that blue eyes is a splash triat , but who knows...might never knwo in ur lifetime.[/quote]
Yeah one of the myths about blue eyes animals, specially dogs, is they are either blind or deaf. While Katie (the dal in the photo) had blue eyes and perfect hearing, she had two girls who were brown eyed and deaf. A long time ago there was an article I read, I think it was about cats, something about the neural crest development and pigment associated deafness, but I don't have a source to pull from right now. However in Gowers book, was there a case study on some Splashed horses that were deaf? Or was that something she mentioned in passing. I have her book some where, but honestly I have no idea where I packed it.

Danni Sun, 06/27/2010 - 03:59

I still think it's caused by the same thing. The blue eyes and the deafness, strong evidence seems to be lack of pigment in the inner ear can cause deafness? I'm sure I read something on it too? I wish I saved things!

But as I said before if it is caused by splash and lack of pigment, splash wouldn't always cause blue eyes or deafness? Just when it puts white spots behind the eye or in the ear?

Heather Sun, 06/27/2010 - 06:51

[quote="Danni"]I still think it's caused by the same thing. The blue eyes and the deafness, strong evidence seems to be lack of pigment in the inner ear can cause deafness? I'm sure I read something on it too? I wish I saved things!

But as I said before if it is caused by splash and lack of pigment, splash wouldn't always cause blue eyes or deafness? Just when it puts white spots behind the eye or in the ear?[/quote]

If you google search BAER testing deafness you liekly to find related info all over.

rabbitsfizz Sun, 06/27/2010 - 13:39

It was the Millard line of Splashed Whites in Oz that JG cited, as far as I can remember all the horses in this line of...um, Paints?? wanted to say QHs but Oz does not accept Pinto QHs so it must be Paints....were deaf, which seems a bit extreme to me.
If I had a deaf horse I might, just might breed it, but I should certainly not breed for the problem.

Danni Sun, 06/27/2010 - 19:05

Yes.. those findings means Australian pinto societies are very anti splash :roll:

Read this definition from Western Australia Pintos
http://www.pintoswa.com/colourpatternsp…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SPLASHED WHITE..............This is not a colour, it is a genetic defect
This animal will have vertically (bottom to top) rising white that seems to just stop at a smooth edged barrier. The parents will both be solid coloured & usually Quarter Horses. This defect is NOT related to any of the above coat patterns. A Splashed White is basically a solid horse whose genes have not completed the job. Not only has the defect failed to colour, it also has affected the hearing ability of the horse i.e. deafness is another of the defects it suffers. Both solid parents need to carry the defective gene to produce Splashed White.

Daylene Alford Sun, 06/27/2010 - 19:25

[quote]A Splashed White is basically a solid horse whose genes have not completed the job.[/quote]

I guess they can't use DW, Frame, Sabino, Tobiano, or Roan either....Those are going to be some very odd looking pintos...

Dogrose Mon, 06/28/2010 - 02:33

[quote="admin"][quote]A Splashed White is basically a solid horse whose genes have not completed the job.[/quote]

I guess they can't use DW, Frame, Sabino, Tobiano, or Roan either....Those are going to be some very odd looking pintos...[/quote]

Thats what I thought too! All white-marked animals are the result of a mutated gene allele not allowing the colour producing cells to reach all over the animal. Apparently any white on an animal is associated with other physical and/or neurological changes (a scientist working on white markings in mice told this to a fellow colour-genetics-geeky friend of mine).

lillith Tue, 06/29/2010 - 04:23

I am sure I read that one of the splash/deafness tests possily linked splash to an ENDRB mutation. Would be logical to me, frame (OLW/LWO/LWS/whatever you want to call it) is a ENDRB mutation, causes white markings, blue eyes and causes neurological issues and deformities when homozgous. Would make sense if splash which (probably) also causes blue eyes and is related to neurological issues (deafness) would be in the same sort of area. May be way out there as I know the colon and the ears are different bits of the horse lol, just seemed to have a continuity to me.

rabbitsfizz Tue, 06/29/2010 - 09:53

[quote="JNFerrigno"]I'm offended they allow Sabero's but not Tobinos or Toveros. What are they, prejudice?

Totally kidding by the way, don't kill me.[/quote]
As far as I can gather these people do not test at all, merely go by Phenotype....and we all know how well that works! :rofl
There is no such thing (I bet you a dollar...) as a Tobino or a Sabero, and I have not yet seen any Splash that does not also have Sabino (I am pretty sure the two patterns aid the expression of one another)

*again, the rider of...I have not seen it does not mean it does not exist, although I do not know how you would prove it without a test!!*

JNFerrigno Tue, 06/29/2010 - 12:39

If they both have similar minimal expressions, how can you be sure what you are seeing? I thought that splashed whites with sabino looked more like these guys :
http://www.reiningnsw.com/images/sonny…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.icelandichorse.is/SlettuskjS…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And ones that were not sabino has more of a boxish look :
http://www.gypsyhorsesaustralia.com/Spl…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.drkminiatures.com/images/Sha…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.morgancolors.com/marvelousin…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rabbitsfizz Wed, 06/30/2010 - 05:48

Sabino and Splash have always been seen to be similar (I am talking European animals now) almost all Welsh are either or, IMO, both to some extent, and I have never seen a Sabino Welsh that did not have Splash characteristics, and vice versa.
Since there is no test yet (of any value) for either it is all educated guesswork, but you cannot pass "judgement" by phenotype, especially in a society that is supposed to have some credence to the registration papers that they are offering. I for one would not register with a society where a PTB person "guessed" at my horses pattern and then actually registered it as such!!
What is wrong with "Base colour + White" for everything except pattern tested animals??

JNFerrigno Wed, 06/30/2010 - 14:41

Yeah that's how we did our appaloosa, basically advertised them Chestnut and White, Palomino and White, ect. I'm not sure what they were registered as, but on their stud and show pages they were advertised as such.

NZ Appaloosas Thu, 07/01/2010 - 02:47

Well, with appies, it's been proven via breeding statistics that there are distinct levels of white expression. Two blankets won't a true leopard (altho' two true leopards can make a blanket).

Diane