Black - creme - leopard

Hi Welcome to the board !!!! :flower

Yes the foal does look smokey black but my question to you - is there any more spotting or mottling on the foal around the mouth, eyes or genitals and/or striped hooves? - so far you are right she looks more rabicano than Appy.

I am not convinced that animal is spotting.
Sire is not a Fewspot so it is merely luck that so far all his progeny have inherited spots...thsi filly looks like a straightforward Smoky black with a bit of Sabino mottling.
Honestly I would expect the nose to be mottled and the hooves to be striped at least, by two if she were going to spot out.
This of course does not mean she will not, Appies are a law unto themselves!!
She is a lovely filly, it will not matter one bit if she does not spot!!!
Oh, sorry, welcome to the board, BTW!!

The foal is either smokey black, or carrying LP (or possibly both).

Welcome to the board WhyNot-Ponys :newbie and thank you for posting such lovely pictures for us to oogle... :love

I concur with the smokey black, but am not convinced of the spotting. I see virtually no Appy characteristics other than scalia, and that can be seen in nearly any breed :-? . But like RF says, Appys can "hide" characterists in some really strange places (soles of feet, the gentalia, etc.) :laugh1

[quote="WhyNot-Ponys"][img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_ancestors…] [/quote]
oh my... :love

I'm not an appy expert...heck I'm barely even an amateur...but the light area do not look normal for a fading or smokey black to me, I mean red pasterns and the mane at the withers?

and welcome!

That's not a normal spot for varnish roan to start...that looks more like sabino or rabicano type roaning rather than appy roaning. I don't agree that the "red" pasterns are evidence of how Lp can mess up black...from my experience, Lp causes a 'bronzy chocolate' effect, not a "coppery red" effect, and would make the rest of the leg points that colour. Remember, dad is hz, so only a 50/50 shot of the foal getting Lp from him.

Whynot, have you had her colour tested for her base colours? At best, she can only be Ee, since mum is a pali, and it could easily be that she's either a funky bay or funky liver chestnut.

Diane

If she's Ee aa crcr what will you think then Diane?

Well, the idea of there being a misfire in the pigmentation of the pasterns (and I'm drawing a blank on the proper term, somatic something-or-other?) is already floating around in my head, without testing...

Diane

wrong shampoo? :lol:

Got into a large, ankle deep, diluted puddle of janola? (Clorox to those in the US, can't remember what brand bleach we used to use in UK or Ireland...)

Diane

It seems unlikely that a somatic would effect all four feet to me. Especially when the majority of obvious somatics we've seen have never been below the elbow/stifle. Especially when we know LP can turn black to ORANGE and black to BLONDE. It just seems a simpler explanation that this is the work of LP.

However, I will admit, I anticipate this one being CRcr, just playing devil's advocate.

Could just be a very strong cream? Dam is a very white isabella. The piece of mane is bugging me about as much as the pasterns, keeps nudging me with "black chestnut" untill I look at the foal pics lol

I´ll do several new pics of her today -- at the moment she looks to me like a rabicano -- she has several strands of white in her tail, she has a streak of white at the withers and then there is, of course, the mottled flanks.
But
I have seen most of her siblings on fathers side ----- all of them started at least one spot ---- his eldest son at 5 years. Another son started with mottling at his mouth with 3 and with roaning at 5 ---- frankly - all of Typs kids are surprise boxes. I´m in contact with Professor Leeb from Bern and he told me that there isn´t a surefire way available to prove leopard -- at least not in the next 12 months.
Here grandmother was cremello -- and the line from her greatgrandfather (also palomino) seems to carry another dilution gene --- don´t know what, because in Germany it´s difficult to test for those -- the laboratories usually are specialized on parentage not on color and test only the basics.

Whynot you are free to post away and we LOVE picstures so don't be shy !!! I still think this filly is smokey black with maybe sunbleaching......I saw very similar colour on my Friesian who got sunbleached.

Whynot there is a good colour testing lab here in the UK you could use that, or you could even send the samples to the US???
I am still in the "Smoky Black no Appy" camp.

I think the point "sunbleached" is well taken ---- she can move freely between stable and paddock so she´s more often out then in -- don´t know what´s "Offenstall" in english -- sorry :oops:

Welcome!
*Waves* glad you made it here :D I knew your pony pics would be admired :love
I'm Silver Taffy from the Aussie forum, if you didn't realise lol.

I'm not surprised your Palomino mare carries another gene. My isabella palomino carries silver and I know that silver isn't meant to effect red based horses but there is just something about him that makes me feel something is at work, not just cream. He just has this really diluted look more so than some of the other light pallies I've seen. Maybe it's just my imagintion though :oops:

Hi Dilutes, best tip ever!!! Special places for special questions!!! :HB
Here some pics -- hope they´ll show enough for further discussions:

[img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/bonni…] [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/bonni…]
[img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/bonni…] [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/bonni…]
[img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/bonni…] [img]http://whynot-ponys.de/images_big/bonni…]

You may well be right about the Rabicano, or it may be straightforward Sabino, but I do not see any Appy........

Same, still not seeing appy, seeing sabino-type roaning...

Diane

She´s only 2 years old --- the eldest son of said stallion developed a patch of white in the age of 5 --- another one started with mottling at 4 ........ it´s very difficult to breed a non-appy horse of him. But only time will tell, I think.

Why-not, the fact is that all the Appies form this stallion are merely coincidence, he in fact, has only a 50/50 chance of throwing Appy.
It works like this:-
Say a horse has the possibility of having 1,000. foals in his lifetime.
Of these, 500 will be Appy and 500 will be plain.
Now, if, coincidentally, the first 15 or even 50 are Appy, people are amazed and say he is Homozygous.
But this is not so, he is merely lucky!!
This is what is happening with this sire.

Exactly--our nose-to-toes leopard mare has given us 4 foals, first 3 were nose-to-toes leopards, last one nose-to-toes solid. Another mare has given us nothing but blanketed foals. Another mare has given us one of each--near leopard and solid/maybe characteristics only. Unless one is breeding from a known homozygous horse, there is no guarantee that Lp will be passed on, and even when breeding to a homozygous horse, there's a chance of getting a foal that is characteristics-only.

Diane

Don´t crucify me, but that would be great!!! My friend detests dots on horses but can live with a roan :lol:

But me ---- I´m wary till she is about 6.

Another question to mentioned filly ----- in my eyes she is sabino ..... but shouldn´t she have more white in her face and white feet for the sabino or does this happen only if you add splash to the sabino????

Sabino's expression varies.